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Advice for Beginners - consider this test from an audio club


ODS123

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4 minutes ago, Tizman said:

My advice to beginners is to never buy a direct radiator speaker with a port or passive radiator.  These types of speakers have distortion that is several orders of magnitude greater than the distortion of upstream electronic components.  They have so much distortion that your choice of amplification doesn’t matter.  In fact, you will not be able to hear a difference between amplifiers with these types of speakers. 

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40 minutes ago, Tizman said:

Check out this thread for an example of an OP who is unable to hear the difference between amplifiers because of his use of a speaker set that uses a direct radiator combined with a passive radiator...

 

 

WTH are you talking about.  ..What is that picture?  ..Nothing that I've attached to a post.

 

As for your tube amp, to put it another way:  ..If your tube amp is audibly distinguishable from a S/S amp, then why would you prefer it??  ..And if it isn't, then, well.... why would you prefer it?  

 

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8 hours ago, ODS123 said:

 

Regularly?  ..I adjust tone controls maybe a few times a week.  ..By using a high distortion Tube design, you're using one 100% of the time.

 

I'd rather season my food to taste after trying it - adding maybe some salt, maybe some pepper -  rather than just douse sugar on EVERYTHING before even tasting it.

Linear is an interesting term.

 

First off, I am not an EE. From what I have read, and been told by my EE friends, the vacuum tube is a more linear amplification device than the transistor.

 

Also, when you talk about distortion, the specifics are important: %IM, %THD (even order vs odd order). 

 

So, for my edification, please clarify: When you use the term "linear" are you talking frequency domain, time domain, transfer function, something else?

 

Thank you.

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1 hour ago, ODS123 said:

As for your tube amp, to put it another way:  ..If your tube amp is audibly distinguishable from a S/S amp, then why would you prefer it??  ..And if it isn't, then, well.... why would you prefer it?  

 

Well they use them in train stations and bus terminals and the vagrants love them. Are you saying the vagrants don't know what they are talking about? Who are you to judge them? If you can't walk a mile in their shoes then you have no right to opine on amps.

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It’s really hard to tell the difference between amplifiers when your speaker contains a direct radiator.  This is compounded by venting the cabinet or using a passive radiator.  The bass is muddied and, if the direct radiator is called upon to reproduce a portion of the midrange, so is the midrange.  This is a known fact.  It is impossible to tell the differences between amplifiers and source components if a direct radiator is used.  However, a tone control or equalizer can be used to mask the distortion products created by the direct radiator + port/passive radiator combo.

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Amplifiers all sound different from each other, but if you don't have a fully horn loaded speaker, the distortion products created by the direct radiators will mask any differences.  Check out this ABX test...

http://matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm

This test used an all direct radiator speaker, and the participants were unable to distinguish between a high end system and a low quality system through this poor all direct radiator speaker.  Conclusive proof that direct radiators make it impossible to achieve a high resolution system.  Beginners take note.  Make sure you buy a high quality all horn speaker.  The more horns a speaker contains, the better.  Klipsch speakers are an excellent choice.  With these sorts of speakers, you will be able to tell the difference between source components and amplifiers.

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46 minutes ago, Dave A said:

All horn setups are better. The problem is the size you need to dig deep in bass.

A very good point.  In the real world, size considerations are an important factor in choosing speakers.  That said, matching the low distortion and dynamics of a horn bass section with DR speakers also requires a large box with multiple drivers.  Sound quality sometimes must be sacrificed in order to satisfy the often present pressure of the SAF.  Unfortunately, SAF specifications are not usually provided by speaker manufacturers and SAF varies greatly from household to household. 

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7 hours ago, Tizman said:

Amplifiers all sound different from each other, but if you don't have a fully horn loaded speaker, the distortion products created by the direct radiators will mask any differences.  Check out this ABX test...

http://matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm

This test used an all direct radiator speaker, and the participants were unable to distinguish between a high end system and a low quality system through this poor all direct radiator speaker.  Conclusive proof that direct radiators make it impossible to achieve a high resolution system.  Beginners take note.  Make sure you buy a high quality all horn speaker.  The more horns a speaker contains, the better.  Klipsch speakers are an excellent choice.  With these sorts of speakers, you will be able to tell the difference between source components and amplifiers.

 

haha... nice try.  Remember,  the $10k RC Amplifier Challenge allowed participants to use their own speakers if they chose.  ..So considering thousands took the test I think it's safe to assume there were plenty of Klipsch or other horn speakers in the mix.  As a reminder: no one ever claimed the prize.  That alone settles the debate, for me anyway. 

 

 

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8 hours ago, ODS123 said:

 

haha... nice try.  Remember,  the $10k RC Amplifier Challenge allowed participants to use their own speakers if they chose.  ..So considering thousands took the test I think it's safe to assume there were plenty of Klipsch or other horn speakers in the mix.  As a reminder: no one ever claimed the prize.  That alone settles the debate, for me anyway. 

 

 

 Oh wow you mean that?  "Safe to assume there were plenty of Klipsch or other horn speakers in the mix" infers we are to believe the conclusions without knowing what we are concluding from. And that settles the debate for you?  That is what you wrote you know.

  Thanks for another day where entertainment starts before I even fill the wood stove. I don't use MDF though as it does not even burn well.

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Dave A said:

 Oh wow you mean that?  "Safe to assume there were plenty of Klipsch or other horn speakers in the mix" infers we are to believe the conclusions without knowing what we are concluding from. And that settles the debate for you?  That is what you wrote you know.

  Thanks for another day where entertainment starts before I even fill the woof stove. I don't use MDF though as it does not even burn well.

 

 

 

 

Sorry to be pedantic but you said "infers" when I think you meant "implies".   From Lawlessenglish.com: 

 

"Imply and infer are two sides of the same coin: a speaker or a writer implies, whereas a listener or reader infers, and for ease of remembering, these two actions occur in alphabetical order. First, I imply, and second, you infer. I’m not implying that you won’t make this mistake any more – I’m just coming right out and saying it. I hope you’re inferring the same thing."

 

 Anyway, I feel comfortable with that assumption. I am also comfortable with the assumption that everybody who participated in this  using speakers other than their own offered as an excuse, “well my system is more revealing - I could certainly hear a difference on my system!"

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