ODS123 Posted January 4, 2019 Author Share Posted January 4, 2019 24 minutes ago, Tizman said: This is going to depend on the drivers in the speaker. For example, a high efficiency full range driver with a low xmax and a rigid surround does loosen up somewhat and sound different in my experience. The result is a more balanced overall sound compared to out of the box. Specifically, there is more low end when broken in. This is also more likely to be noticeable because one driver is reproducing the full range (or most of it), so changes in frequency response will be more noticeable. I would guess that the change in sound of a more normal DR driver, with a more compliant surround, would not be as noticeable. This is especially true if that "normal" speaker is used in a manner that limits its frequency range such as in a two, three or four way speaker with a crossover. Have you tried this test yourself ODS123? If so, what drivers did you use, and what was the result? I did w/ my last three speaker purchases: Vandersteen 3A Sigs (3 way floor-stander); Paradigm S8 v2s (3-way floor stander); and my Klipsch Cornwall III's. In each case I let one play through the night than came down the next am to compare. ..No, not one iota of difference. And not to antagonize but all of your explanations as to WHY break-in might occur doesn't really enter into what I'm suggesting. A beginner can just ignore all of that and just try it. In fact, reading an explanation such as yours or something they may read in an owners manual might have the effect of predisposing them to expectation bias. I personally believe break-in is a myth perpetuated by some manufacturers as a way of discouraging product returns. 250 hours of breakin? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakeydeal Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Just now, Tizman said: A McIntosh MA6600, is not about utility. It's full on shiny. It's utilitarian like a stretch Hummer used to take the kids to school is utilitarian. Given ODS123's beliefs, his choice of a Sony receiver would be utilitarian. Agreed. But he portrays it as utilitarian, as contradictory as that may be. He would have you believe a Sony receiver would give the same sonic results. Therein lies the rub. But as someone who can hear differences in components, I have an emotional attachment to some of this stuff. I know for a fact that if I swapped my current amplifier with something else, I would surely know something is different. It might be better, or it might be worse. But it would NOT be the same. Shakey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornukopia Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 17 minutes ago, Shakeydeal said: I do view components as having more worth than a dishwasher I just realized that my dishwasher is wasting space that could be occupied by a nice subwoofer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizman Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 2 minutes ago, Khornukopia said: I just realized that my dishwasher is wasting space that could be occupied by a nice subwoofer. Great idea! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODS123 Posted January 4, 2019 Author Share Posted January 4, 2019 17 minutes ago, Tizman said: A McIntosh MA6600, is not about utility. It's full on shiny. It's utilitarian like a stretch Hummer used to take the kids to school is utilitarian. Given ODS123's beliefs, his choice of a Sony receiver would be utilitarian. I think my reasons for choosing my amp have been covered, but if not. Here's my review of my amp on Audioasylum. Hifi Heretic is my name there. https://www.audioasylum.com/messages/amp/180899/review-mcintosh-ma6600-integrated-amplifier-ss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizman Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 8 minutes ago, ODS123 said: I did w/ my last three speaker purchases: Vandersteen 3A Sigs (3 way floor-stander); Paradigm S8 v2s (3-way floor stander); and my Klipsch Cornwall III's. In each case I let one play through the night than came down the next am to compared. ..No, not one iota of difference. I'm sure that it would be more difficult to hear much difference with multi-way speakers. Also, expectation bias is in play in your case. Obviously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizman Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 2 minutes ago, ODS123 said: I think my reasons for choosing my amp have been covered, but if not. Here's my review of my amp on Audioasylum. Hifi Heretic is my name there. Yes they have been, earlier in this thread. They have nothing to do with sound quality, if I remember correctly. Although I'm sure that the Mac is capable of excellent sound quality. Features and shiny, which is fine. For me it's sound quality and shiny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakeydeal Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 I've posted this before, but here it is again. In 1996 I traded in a pair of Definitive Technology BP2000 tower speakers for a pair of Von Schweikert VR4 Silvers. My dealer delivered the new speakers and picked up the old ones. I had ordered the VR4s after a favorable audition at the Stereophile show in NYC that summer. Within hours of setting up the new speakers I was on the phone to the dealer asking if he could return my old DT speakers and take the VR4s back. I was sure I had made a mistake. I had never experienced speaker break in, so didn't even consider that to be an issue. I just thought they were plain bad. So I let the speakers play for a couple of weeks, 24 hours a day. I didn't do any serious listening, couldn't stand to. I just waited it out. So eventually I sat down again to listen, and what I heard didn't remotely resemble the speakers I had listened to on that first day. Believe me, I was prepared to sell them and take the hit. But I was floored by the music they reproduced and kept them for several years. No, I didn't get "used" to the sound of them. I barely listened to them until I ran them in for a couple of weeks. I have heard speaker break in since then, but nothing as dramatic as that pair. Sometimes I hear no difference at all, sometimes it's pretty obvious. So fire retardant suit donned, do your best............ Shakey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 22 hours ago, Edgar said: It might be that we can discern differences when we know specifically what to listen for (e.g., when tuning an algorithm I know what that algorithm is supposed to do to the sound, because I designed it). Just musing here ... I thought about this some more since I posted it. I wonder if that's not really the key to the ABX "problem" (for lack of a better word). ABX strikes me as being a something like the puzzle in Highlights magazine at the doctor's office: "There are six differences between the two drawings above. Can you find them all?" Only you're not told how many differences there are (if any). Some people never find all six. (Yes, I know that ABX testing methodology is different than that. Bear with me.) It may be that trying to compare two full-bandwidth, very similar audio samples is just too much information to process. What would happen if an ABX test was performed in which the test subjects were told, "One of these amplifiers has more high-order harmonic distortion than the other."? (Or fill in the blank with whatever difference you think might be audible.) Would anybody be able to pass an ABX test under those circumstances? I recall a test CD (I think it might have been from Stereophile) that I obtained many years ago. It had one track in which the same audio switched between two different sources (I think it was different ADCs) multiple times, and the listener was asked to find the transitions. It took me a very long time, but I eventually noticed a very slight lateral shift in the soundstage at a transition. Once I noticed that, finding the other transitions became very easy because I knew what to listen for. After that I ignored everything except soundstage. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizman Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 My most notable experience with break in was with a pair of new Audio Nirvana drivers that I bought, built cabs for and listened to for the first time. They were screechy and had very little bottom end. Very disappointing. I then did what the manufacturer recommended and gave them a break in. I did this by playing music through them, at moderate levels, face to face and wired out of phase for a couple of days. I also didn't listen to them during that time. After this break in, they were more even sounding with much more bass. It made them go from completely unlistenable to listenable. I have never had a speaker that imaged as well as these did. That said, they could drill a hole in your head with certain material. They are currently in speaker limbo with a bunch of other non Klipsch speakers.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 There are measurable differences in woofer Thiele/Small parameters after they have been used for a while. For low-excursion drivers like midranges and tweeters, I don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizman Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 It's not unreasonable to expect that something mechanical, like a driver, might change from its freshly produced state to something different after being used for a while. This probably has to do mostly with the compliance of the surrounds. There has been changes in Thiele/Small parameters measured and recorded by speaker builders in the past. These changes will change the sound of a speaker system, as they change the tuning of drivers in enclosures. I don't think that there is much room for argument on this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzannucci Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 38 minutes ago, Tizman said: It's not unreasonable to expect that something mechanical, like a driver, might change from its freshly produced state to something different after being used for a while. This probably has to do mostly with the compliance of the surrounds. There has been changes in Thiele/Small parameters measured and recorded by speaker builders in the past. These changes will change the sound of a speaker system, as they change the tuning of drivers in enclosures. I don't think that there is much room for argument on this point. A number of very reputable speaker vendors break in the drivers before matching them in pairs. I don't think they do that just so they can charge more $$$. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizman Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 1 hour ago, ODS123 said: And not to antagonize but all of your explanations as to WHY break-in might occur doesn't really enter into what I'm suggesting. A beginner can just ignore all of that and just try it. In fact, reading an explanation such as yours or something they may read in an owners manual might have the effect of predisposing them to expectation bias. I personally believe break-in is a myth perpetuated by some manufacturers as a way of discouraging product returns. You brought the topic up, and opined on it, thus predisposing the almost certainly non-existent beginners reading this thread into believing that break in doesnt exist for speakers. This is a disservice to beginners, as it does exist, and changes in TS parameters have been measured and quantified for certain drivers. These non-existent beginners might return excellent speakers because they did not break them in. The Audio Nirvanas were really terrible sounding prior to break in. It’s funny that you don’t see yourself as also predisposing beginners to expectation bias. What do you think is happening when beginners read your posts? Do you think that it’s okay because you are predisposing them to the “right” bias? Bias is bias, and predisposition is predisposition. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave A Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 2 hours ago, ODS123 said: I'd say now swap the left/ right leads just to make sure you're not hearing a channel imbalance - ie., one plays louder than the other. ..Other than that, what's there to say? So they hear a difference. At least they can make the claim after having applied an iota of scientific rigor. And an "iota" is about all that it would be because there's still plenty of opportunity for bias to intrude. But at least it's a comparison made w/ levels matched AND made quickly. You just make my day without doing a thing other than being you. The sublime humor to be had regarding a person like you, who bases his whole life on narrow experience and complete dismissal of things beneath his self imposed oracular chosen dignity, to talk authoritatively about stuff the way you do is priceless. Thanks for the link I am going to check out your sage wisdom over there for grins and giggles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzannucci Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 4 minutes ago, Dave A said: You just make my day without doing a thing other than being you. The sublime humor to be had regarding a person like you, who bases his whole life on narrow experience and complete dismissal of things beneath his self imposed oracular chosen dignity, to talk authoritatively about stuff the way you do is priceless. Thanks for the link I am going to check out your sage wisdom over there for grins and giggles. I'm sure you will enjoy. It is easy to choose when there is only one to choose from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave A Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 2 hours ago, ODS123 said: I did w/ my last three speaker purchases: Vandersteen 3A Sigs (3 way floor-stander); Paradigm S8 v2s (3-way floor stander); and my Klipsch Cornwall III's. In each case I let one play through the night than came down the next am to compare. ..No, not one iota of difference. So when are you going to tell Vandersteen he is wrong to eh? Which reminds me he said 100 hours so maybe it would help if you read the manual next time. Ha ha ha, you are killing me OD!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 I heard from a reputable source how Roy Delgado loosens up the suspensions of woofers before he measures them. I think I'd like to be at least a mile away while he's doing that. When I bought my new Klipschorns, Steve Philips of Klipsch told me to wait at least three days before evaluating them. Richard Marsh of Reliable Capacitor told me that it takes 10-20 for capacitors to "settle down". Mike Sanders of Quicksilver told me the same thing. It's not always easy to sift the science out of the voodoo -- but when everyone in the industry agrees on a thing ... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODS123 Posted January 4, 2019 Author Share Posted January 4, 2019 8 minutes ago, Dave A said: So when are you going to tell Vandersteen he is wrong to eh? Which reminds me he said 100 hours so maybe it would help if you read the manual next time. Ha ha ha, you are killing me OD!! Keep reading… He also talks about cable break in in the manual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 2 hours ago, ODS123 said: In each case I let one play through the night than came down the next am to compare. ..No, not one iota of difference. No, probably not. It takes about a week or so of normal play. Low volume over 8 hours isn't going to get it. I do agree that some of the "required" break-in hours are ridiculous. Like, when someone tells me it takes 400 hours for a capacitor to break-in. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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