Dave A Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 1 minute ago, ODS123 said: Keep reading… He also talks about cable break in in the manual. OK I will bite. How does that change the comment you made on breaking in those specific speakers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave A Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 28 minutes ago, Deang said: I heard from a reputable source how Roy Delgado loosens up the suspensions of woofers before he measures them. I think I'd like to be at least a mile away while he's doing that. When I bought my new Klipschorns, Steve Philips of Klipsch told me to wait at least three days before evaluating them. Richard Marsh of Reliable Capacitor told me that it takes 10-20 for capacitors to "settle down". Mike Sanders of Quicksilver told me the same thing. It's not always easy sift the science out of the voodoo -- but when everyone in the industry agrees on a thing ... When I install new tweeters and or crossover caps in speakers I am selling I always let them run for a few days before they are up for sale. It most definitely does make a difference and I want people who show up to hear things as they should be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 33 minutes ago, Dave A said: You just make my day without doing a thing other than being you. The sublime humor to be had regarding a person like you, who bases his whole life on narrow experience and complete dismissal of things beneath his self imposed oracular chosen dignity, to talk authoritatively about stuff the way you do is priceless. I used to pontificate endlessly around here about things I was clueless about. It took me a long time to realize that I was out of my depth, and to start keeping my mouth shut. So, while I also find it irritating, It's hard for me judge. So ... I'll give ODS a couple of more weeks ... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TubeHiFiNut Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 I am beginning to think that there are folks out there who might enjoy music but either can't, or have no interest in, listening for and recognizing differences in the sound of electronic components. It might be like asking someone who can't see colors to paint flowers that are different colors - everything comes out black and white. Just my opinion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornukopia Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 4 hours ago, Shakeydeal said: I do view components as having more worth than a dishwasher or microwave oven. 4 hours ago, Khornukopia said: I just realized that my dishwasher is wasting space that could be occupied by a nice subwoofer. 4 hours ago, Tizman said: Great idea! Pulled out the tape measure and yes, the Marty Cube Sub can fit in the space of the existing dishwasher, with room leftover for a stack of paper plates. (Marty Cube from the flat pack kit that @Westcoastdrums told us about in the subwoofer forum) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richieb Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 20 minutes ago, TubeHiFiNut said: I am beginning to think that there are folks out there who might enjoy music but either can't, or have no interest in, listening for and recognizing differences in the sound of electronic components. It might be like asking someone who can't see colors to paint flowers that are different colors - everything comes out black and white. Just my opinion. === you are correct. Thee are no doubt a much larger % of the population that likes music either for the pure enjoyment of listening or for soothing background that can care less about how it is reproduced. Tubes, SS, horns, panels, radiators, etc. are of little or no interest. Our “little group” of enthusiasts are the minority I believe. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEH Synergy Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 30 minutes ago, Khornukopia said: Pulled out the tape measure and yes, the Marty Cube Sub can fit in the space of the existing dishwasher, with room leftover for a stack of paper plates. (Marty Cube from the flat pack kit that @Westcoastdrums told us about in the subwoofer forum) Speaking of which, I'm waiting to hear back from them as far as designing me a danley clone that will "far out perform" what danley has to offer in my limited space availability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 2 hours ago, Deang said: So ... I'll give ODS a couple of more weeks ... Gee, thanks Dean. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEH Synergy Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 2 hours ago, Deang said: I used to pontificate endlessly around here about things I was clueless about. It took me a long time to realize that I was out of my depth, and to start keeping my mouth shut. So, while I also find it irritating, It's hard for me judge. So ... I'll give ODS a couple of more weeks ... I think that is fair of you to say in all seriousness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 6 hours ago, Tizman said: 7 hours ago, ODS123 said: Speaker break-in. Once you buy your speakers set both right beside each other. Hook one up and let it play all night. Next day, hook the other up and now switch between the two using a mono recording and the balance control. Hear one iota of difference? Perhaps not all golden-ears, but many will tell you that speakers will sound dramatically different after break-in. This is going to depend on the drivers in the speaker. For example, a high efficiency full range driver with a low xmax and a rigid surround does loosen up somewhat and sound different in my experience. The result is a more balanced overall sound compared to out of the box. Specifically, there is more low end when broken in. This is also more likely to be noticeable because one driver is reproducing the full range (or most of it), so changes in frequency response will be more noticeable. I would guess that the change in sound of a more normal DR driver, with a more compliant surround, would not be as noticeable. This is especially true if that "normal" speaker is used in a manner that limits its frequency range such as in a two, three or four way speaker with a crossover. Have you tried this test yourself ODS123? If so, what drivers did you use, and what was the result? Fwiw, here is what Trey says about speakers break-in: On 12/23/2010 at 6:53 AM, Trey Cannon said: Ok, there is such thing as break in , but we do it in 20 min with 75% `input voltage at 20Hz. The complance of the woofers is where you would see the change. However, with that said, after 8 hr at 32V they had about 1 - 1.5db more output gain...not a lot of change.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshnich Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 I admit that I skimmed most of the discussion, so if this was covered forgive me. Back to the OPs original test. What exactly were you listening to for the test? It was mentioned early on that a lot of recorded music was never actually played live - and is in fact the product of an sound engineer. Not sure that a lots of folks could pick a favorite between equipment by listening to some over compressed dogs breakfast of sound. I am pretty sure that a lot of folks have favorite demonstration music that they play to impress folks. I know that I do. And in addition to somethings I blast ( people always want to know how loud "it" plays) I have a number of acoustic recordings be they classical, jazz , vocals - both men and women that always ends up being the most impressive demo. A couple of other points...If the OP cant tell the difference between amps, why does he say that he doesnt like SET amplifiers? Also why do virtually all guitarists prefer tube amplifiers - made from plywood BTW. just saying Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornukopia Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 (edited) 48 minutes ago, joshnich said: Also why do virtually all guitarists prefer tube amplifiers - made from plywood BTW. Guitarists almost always use tube amplifiers because when driven into distortion levels, the tube amps produce certain desirable noisy guitar sound effects. Many guitar players like the warm rich sound of tube amps when not driven into distortion. Edited January 4, 2019 by Khornukopia Second reason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizman Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 ODS123 has never heard a SET amp in his system. He doesn’t want to because he does not consider SETs to be linear. That is what he says. I would argue that anyone who can’t hear that there are differences in sound between different amps with a given set of speakers is not going to be able to hear the differences in distortion between .05% and .5%. Also, a well executed SET is low distortion. It would appear that ODS123 listens at lowish volume based upon his posts. With his Cornwalls this would mean under a quarter Watt, SET amps have lower distortion at low Watts because distortion in SETs increases linearly with output. His contention that SET amps have high distortion is inaccurate. This is especially true in his specific application. Have a look online at distortion levels and the types of distortion that SETs produce and how this correlates to output levels, and you can see that at non damaging SPL with high sensitivity speakers, distortion is very low in a well executed SET amp. It’s kind of pointless looking at distortion levels of a 300B amp at its full 8 Watts output when you are normally using it at a quarter Watt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzannucci Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 As said in Stereophile's last mag, if one is right the other is wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richieb Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 === if you can’t hear the difference between a PP and a true DHT Single ended amp you may need a good old fashioned ear cleaning — Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODS123 Posted January 4, 2019 Author Share Posted January 4, 2019 1 hour ago, Tizman said: ODS123 has never heard a SET amp in his system. He doesn’t want to because he does not consider SETs to be linear. That is what he says. I would argue that anyone who can’t hear that there are differences in sound between different amps with a given set of speakers is not going to be able to hear the differences in distortion between .05% and .5%. Also, a well executed SET is low distortion. It would appear that ODS123 listens at lowish volume based upon his posts. With his Cornwalls this would mean under a quarter Watt, SET amps have lower distortion at low Watts because distortion in SETs increases linearly with output. His contention that SET amps have high distortion is inaccurate. This is especially true in his specific application. Have a look online at distortion levels and the types of distortion that SETs produce and how this correlates to output levels, and you can see that at non damaging SPL with high sensitivity speakers, distortion is very low in a well executed SET amp. It’s kind of pointless looking at distortion levels of a 300B amp at its full 8 Watts output when you are normally using it at a quarter Watt. I didn't say there are no linear SET amps. McIntosh SET amps are very linear. As I mentioned earlier, a previous employee at McIntosh said it was common knowledge (though not openly admitted) that NO ONE there was able to reliably able to distinguish their SET amps from their S/S amps. ..Now that is a well engineered SET amp! So, if an SET integrated amp IS linear, and therefore sounds like a S/S amp, why chose it over a S/S amp? Moreover, I also require tone controls, a mono switch and input leveling. Which SET integrated amp even offers this?? McIntosh has SET pre-amps that offer this but not integrated. Also, I most certainly DO listen to my music very loudly at times. But even then, my wattage meters never crest 20 watts. But when I do listen at quiet levels I expect my integrated or pre-amp to maintain volume balance all the way to full attenuation. My PeachTree Nova plus my Bryston and B&K pre/amp combos failed to do this. I already said I'd LOVE to have a (newer iteration) MC275. But not because I think it will sound different but b/c I love the history of it, the look, etc... But not until kids are out of school. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 McIntosh doesn’t make a SET amp. Their tube amps are PP/ Ultralinear using gobs of global feedback - which is why they sound a lot like SS. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODS123 Posted January 4, 2019 Author Share Posted January 4, 2019 7 hours ago, Dave A said: OK I will bite. How does that change the comment you made on breaking in those specific speakers? If he's promulgating the myth of cable break-in (seriously?) and amp break-in (not mentioned in the owner's manual, but he's said it elsewhere) it becomes hard to know whether or not to take seriously his remarks about Speaker break-in. ..No, I probably wouldn't tell him I distrust him on these counts. ..He's cranky. I loved my 3A sigs, but I never bought into his claims about time coherence/ alignment, etc. ...I listened extensively to them and liked them enough to buy them. ..I sold them b/c they aren't meant for the kind of SPLs necessary for home theater. I now need my floor-standers to perform double-duty: 2-channel for music, L/R front for HT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 7 hours ago, Deang said: No, probably not. It takes about a week or so of normal play. Low volume over 8 hours isn't going to get it. I do agree that some of the "required" break-in hours are ridiculous. Like, when someone tells me it takes 400 hours for a capacitor to break-in. Some New Owners, themselves, require about 1,000 hours to break in, but that's beyond the scope of this text. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizman Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 1 hour ago, ODS123 said: I didn't say there are no linear SET amps. McIntosh SET amps are very linear. As I mentioned earlier, a previous employee at McIntosh said it was common knowledge (though not openly admitted) that NO ONE there was able to reliably able to distinguish their SET amps from their S/S amps. ..Now that is a well engineered SET amp! A Mac SET amp? No such thing. It appears that you dismiss things that you don’t have any understanding of. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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