Advice for Beginners - consider this test from an audio club

[Deang]

5 hours ago, ODS123 said:

You guys are sore because you can't abide someone shining a light on the fact that this hobby suffers from a complete lack of honesty or validity controls ...

 

That’s not the reason some of us are irritated. The fact that you keep missing it (in spite of people telling you a dozen times over), just makes it that much worse - you really are oblivious. 

 

Did you read the Audioholics article I linked to? 

 

I still think the method of testing is like trying to use a ruler to measure the thickness of a piece of paper, but whatever. 

 

You mentioned engineers and the science that goes into design, and how they would be appalled by the subjectivist and somewhat emotive responses by audiophiles, when in fact - everything they do is for the purpose of getting the best response and behavior under real world loudspeaker loads. Some even design amps for specific types of loudspeakers. Go over to diyaudio and search out posts by Pass, Curl and the many others who design and build this stuff - all of that engineering and applied science is a means to an end. When they are done, there is a lot of talk about what it sounds like. If all of those scientifically minded people believe that DBT is the end all in testing, and reveals the fruit of their labor to be for the most part a waste of time ... why bother. 

 

Moving on ..

 

I’ve had good sounding systems since high school, and knowledgeable sales people helped me with most things I ever bought. Later, those “sales people” were members of various message boards who always did their best to help me. Yes, there is voodoo and dishonesty, just like with everything else. You eat the meat and spit out the bones - caveat emptor. Stating the obvious does not make you a lightbringer.

 

I think we can all agree that there is audio-foolery - but I don’t think an admission that one hears a difference between amplifiers, preamps, processors, DACs, and players of various sorts - falls into that category. 

 

You’re like the guy who drives a Corvette, who tells me I spent more than I should of on my Taurus, because studies indicate that blindfolded passengers can’t tell any real discernible difference in handling. When I ask why you own a Corvette, you tell me you like the way the dashboard is laid out. 

[ClaudeJ1]

5 hours ago, ODS123 said:

 

 

You guys are sore because you can't abide someone shining a light on the fact that this hobby suffers from a complete lack of honesty or validity controls - something that I am sure would vex our patron saint PWK.  

 

Still, I'm happy this fine morning because I awakened to find that my MDF Cornwall III's have lived to see yet another day despite a startling lack of structural integrity and weather proofing.

Patron Saint? He was quite human when I met him in 1985 and spent a day with him at the factory, his home, and in a restaurant (opened just for 4 of us to include our wives at the time). We did a shot of Glenfiddich Single Malt Scotch (or was is Glenlivet) while listening to his personal recordings and he sneaked a fart into the couch cushion, which I hear "Saints" never do, but real humans do. He also pulled RCA plugs with all the amps ON, and was swearing at all the noise it was making. It was at that precise moment that I understood why he put back to back Zener diode protection into the tweeter section of his AA networks, as any good Engineer would do!! Patron Saints don't do that either.

[ClaudeJ1]

30 minutes ago, TubeHiFiNut said:

Besides awesome performances, these recordings offer fidelity and resolution that easily highlight differences in components and also limitations within the system.

 

In my opinion, high rez digital is very close but my "go to" preference is still for analog via my turntables.

 

Just my opinion and YMMV.

You should try listening to the Klipsch recordings from the 1950's by John Eargle, who worked for Klipsch and Associates, as well as JBL (available on DVD). Their fidelity and dynamics would astound you.........as did PWK's analog tapes on his Revox when he played them for me at his house when I was my baby girl's age in 1985.

[ClaudeJ1]

On 1/4/2019 at 10:09 PM, Westcoastdrums said:

Electronics have come A LONG way since he unfortunately left this earth. 

When I lived in Indy (2013-2014), I went to Klipsch HQ and had my little Sonic Impact Tested by a Klipsch engineer, which featured a Tripath 2020 (24?) chip, as one of the best chip designes of the last 50 years. His conclusion? It was a very good 6 Watt/ch. amplifier, which he said PWK would have liked, and had always wished for (RIP 2002).

[ClaudeJ1]

On 1/4/2019 at 10:24 PM, ODS123 said:

 

Yes, they have.  The challenges of making a small signal larger without distorting it have been largely solved. 

 

Well, I don't know if the vintage Yamaha qualifies as "linear" (ie., does it have a F/R, THD, IMD, S/N ratio etc.. beyond our hearing threshold) but I would say it's entirely possible that moving the speakers into another room may have had everything to do with what he and you were hearing   Room acoustics count a great deal.

Room acoustics equal 90% of the sound your hear, plus/minus 5%.

[ClaudeJ1]

18 hours ago, ODS123 said:

 

This means that one can't chose their amp blindly.  If you buy a 50 watt AVR to drive 85db efficient speakers to 118 db levels from 30 ft away in a cavernous room  you will be sorely disappointed.  Yes, it will sound awful.

A 50 watt amplifier is a 17 dbWatt amplifier. It can only drive an 85 db/Watt speaker to 85+17=102 db level while your are sitting 1 meter away. It would require 2,000 Watts (33 dbWatts) to drive said speaker to 118 db, which might also require a 911 call to the local Fire Department. You example is NOT real world.

[Deang]

“Room acoustics equals 90% of the sound you hear ...”

 

@ClaudeJ1I don’t believe that. I’ve moved stuff all around my house over the years. A system always maintains its characteristic sonic signature. Yes, the sound changes - but 90% is overstating things. 

[Deang]

6 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

A 50 watt amplifier is a 17 dbWatt amplifier. It can only drive an 85 db/Watt speaker to 85+17=102 db level while you are sitting 1 meter away. It would require 2,000 Watts (33 dbWatts) to drive said speaker to 118 db, which might also require a 911 call to the local Fire Department. You example is NOT real world.

 

He was just giving an extreme example of why an amplifier might sound bad - being driven into distortion - because the speakers are too inefficient and the amplifier too small. I don’t think he was attempting to give a real world example. 

[ClaudeJ1]

11 minutes ago, Deang said:

“Room acoustics equals 90% of the sound you hear ...”

 

@ClaudeJ1I don’t believe that. I’ve moved stuff all around my house over the years. A system always maintains its characteristic sonic signature. Yes, the sound changes - but 90% is overstating things. 

Not really. According to PWK and my own measurements over decades of outdoors vs. indoors (of which Tom Danley does the same thing in his new and old digs). The inverse square law is the telltale. When you move from 1 meter to 3, the resultant Lack of SPL reduction means you are in the 90% reverberant field and it no loner attenuates according to the law, which only works anechoically or outdoors. This partially and probably explains the widespread use of near field monitors.

 

[ClaudeJ1]

2 minutes ago, Deang said:

 

He was just giving an extreme example of why an amplifier might sound bad - being driven into distortion - because the speakers are too inefficient and the amplifier too small. I don’t think he was attempting to give a real world example. 

Exactly my point.

[ODS123]

17 hours ago, robert_kc said:

 

 

Which takes me back to my question:  Have you performed your listening tests with modern top-quality state-of-the-art recordings (i.e., recorded, mastered, and delivered in hi-res) of music for which there is a clear benchmark for audio quality?  How much demand was placed on the hi-fi system by the music you chose (e.g., simple folk music vs. large scale orchestral music)?

 

Again, I’m not being critical of your music choices, and it is not my intent to tell anyone else what types of music to listen to.   I’m just trying to understand why you can’t hear differences in amps.

 

 

 

No offense taken.

 

Robert..  The belief in the audibility and significance of differences b/w amplifiers pre-dates all those high resolution formats.  Plus, whether or not those formats actually sound better sound better is ALSO a matter of considerable debate.  

 

The music I listened to - like The Nightfly and Aja and Muddy Waters Folk Singer, etc.. - have long been used in hifi stores and audio shows to demonstrate and show off the quality of their gear.  ..So if they had me listening to the wrong music, then shame on them.

 

Yes, of course we haven't compared amplifiers WITH EVERY SINGLE recording, so it is theoretically possible that there is some magical recording somewhere that allows people to better hear differences b/w amplifiers.  I guess subjectivists can always say, "Well, you didn't listen to X or Y recording, so you really didn't give yourself the best opportunity."

 

But remember, Richard Clark allowed people to chose their OWN music and their OWN source (cd player, etc..)...  And yet no one ever claimed the $10k prize.

 

[TubeHiFiNut]

31 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

You should try listening to the Klipsch recordings from the 1950's by John Eargle, who worked for Klipsch and Associates, as well as JBL (available on DVD). Their fidelity and dynamics would astound you.........as did PWK's analog tapes on his Revox when he played them for me at his house when I was my baby girl's age in 1985.

Thank you, Claude. 

 

I will find the recordings you recommend and get them.

[ClaudeJ1]

https://www.highdeftapetransfers.com/products/klipsch-tape-reissues-24bit-192khz

[ClaudeJ1]

7 minutes ago, TubeHiFiNut said:

Thank you, Claude. 

 

I will find the recordings you recommend and get them.

You can get both volumes on CD for less than the price of lunch.

[TubeHiFiNut]

3 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

But remember, Richard Clark allowed people to chose their OWN music and their OWN source (cd player, etc..)...  And yet no one ever claimed the $10k prize.

If you are actually looking for a conversation where the participants might be able to learn from each other, you should drop this "straw man", which has been discussed ad nauseam on this thread and holds little, if any, credibility with those of us who can hear differences in components.

 

If you're just "poking the bear" and are not really into having a mutually beneficial conversation, then there's not much for us to discuss.

 

Just my opinion.

[ODS123]

50 minutes ago, Deang said:

You’re like the guy who drives a Corvette, who tells me I spent more than I should of on my Taurus, because studies indicate that blindfolded passengers can’t tell any real discernible difference in handling. When I ask why you own a Corvette, you tell me you like the way the dashboard is laid out. 

 

Please tell me what other integrated amp has wattage meters, tone controls, a mono switch, and input leveling??  The other choices are no cheaper - luxman and accuphase. I know this b/c I considered them as well.

 

Are you this critical of people who own, say, a BMW even though they have no intention of wildly exceeding the speed limit or go drifting through turns??

[Deang]

10 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Not really. According to PWK and my own measurements over decades of outdoors vs. indoors (of which Tom Danley does the same thing in his new and old digs). The inverse square law is the telltale. When you move from 1 meter to 3, the resultant Lack of SPL reduction means you are in the 90% reverberant field and it no longer attenuates according to the law, which only works anechoically or outdoors. This partially and probably explains the widespread use of near field monitors.

 

LaScalas sounded like LaScalas in one room. LaScalas sounded like LaScalas in another. I don’t think I’m correctly interpreting what you are saying (yeah, I’m a bit slow). 

[TubeHiFiNut]

13 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

https://www.highdeftapetransfers.com/products/klipsch-tape-reissues-24bit-192khz

 

8 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

You can get both volumes on CD for less than the price of lunch.

Thank you, Claude.

 

Volumes I and II ordered.

[ODS123]

12 minutes ago, TubeHiFiNut said:

If you are actually looking for a conversation where the participants might be able to learn from each other, you should drop this "straw man", which has been discussed ad nauseam on this thread and holds little, if any, credibility with those of us who can hear differences in components.

 

If you're just "poking the bear" and are not really into having a mutually beneficial conversation, then there's not much for us to discuss.

 

Just my opinion.

 

That is NOT the straw man in this discussion.  The straw man is the non-existent person you guys keep attacking for saying things that haven't been said.  Like "EVERYTHING sounds the same", or even "ALL AMPS sound the same..or that "Klipsch Pro Series speakers suck."  ..No one ever said those things yet that is who you keep attacking.  

[TubeHiFiNut]

6 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

Are you this critical of people who own, say, a BMW even though they have no intention of wildly exceeding the speed limit or go drifting through turns??

The only valid reason I ever needed for owning performance automobiles and motorcycles was so I could go "wildly exceeding the speed limit or go drifting through turns".

 

Just my personal opinion.