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Advice for Beginners - consider this test from an audio club


ODS123

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1 hour ago, Tizman said:

I sold a bunch of my amps a few months ago.  Of the three buyers that demoed the amps on my La Scala’s, one has bought a pair of Heresy III, and another other is presently shopping for La Scalas.  Just one 30 minute listening session on an all horn Klipsch speaker is all it took.

That's only because you sold them amps that only sound good on horns.

 

Had they demo'd them on regular speakers you'd not made sales.

Edited by glens
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It seems Diz, Dean and Dave are hellbent on getting this thread shut down.  I seem to have a struck a nerve with you three.

 

Guys, I'll reply to your posts so long as their pertinent.  It's not a problem if they're snide, snarky or even nasty, so long as their relevent.

 

Tiz..  From Richard Clark's website.  There's a great deal of Q&A from RC to critics such as yourself.  I suggest you go to the website and read for yourself before further hectoring me on this point.

 

Amplifier Comparison Test Conditions

1. Amplifier gain controls - of both channels - are matched to within +- .05 dB.

2. Speaker wires on both amps are properly wired with respect to polarity. (+ and -)

3. That neither amp has signal phase inversion. If so correction will be made in #2 above.

4. That neither amp is loaded beyond its rated impedance.

5. That all amplifiers with signal processors have those features turned off. This includes bass boost circuits, filters, etc. If frequency tailoring circuits cannot be completely bypassed an equalizer will be inserted in the signal path of one of the amps (only one and the listener can decide which) to compensate for the difference. Compensation will also be made for input and output loading that affects frequency response. Since we are only listening for differences in the sonic signature of circuit topology, the addition of an EQ in only one amps signal path should make the test even easier.

6. That neither amp exhibits excessive noise (including RFI).

7. That each amp can be properly driven by the test setup. Not normally a problem but it is theoretically a problem.

8. That the L and R channels are not reversed in one amp.

9. That neither amp has excessive physical noise or other indicators that can be observed by the listener.

10. That neither amp has DC OFFSET that causes audible pops when its output is switched.

11. That the channel separation of all amps in the test is at least 30 dB from 20Hz to 20kHz.

 

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12 hours ago, ODS123 said:

So if you are a believer in the house sound and signature sound concept of amplifier selection, what do you think of this very possible theoretical conversation between a customer and a salesperson at an Audio store. What would you tell the customer?? Yes, this is a straw man, but it's not an unlikely scenario.

 

Cus: “Wow, there are a lot of amplifiers in this room - why so many choices? is it just a difference in how powerful they are?”

 

SP:  “No, it's because they all have their own sound!”

 

Cus:  “Wow, so if I hooked one up after you leave the room could you tell me which is playing without looking when you came back in?

 

SP:  “Well, yes, but it would take time - could be hours, maybe days before the amp would reveal itself through its unique signature and feel. I would know which because each differs in how it connects me emotionally with the music.”

 

Cus: “You mean, you couldn’t just tell me now?  

 

SP:  “No, because your question makes me too uneasy to be receptive to the amps unique signature.”

 

Cus:  "Wow... and what about Cd players?  Those too??

 

SP:  "Yes, those too AND all of your speaker cables and interconnects as well.  ..They all have their own signature. And they all could take a while to reveal their unique strengths to you." 

 

I think most beginners looking for a sound system to enjoy with their existing cd and music file collection could very likely think, “Ok, that seems nutty…I think I’ll just go look at a Bose SoundDeck or a Sonos system.”
 

 

Meanwhile, maybe Diz, Dean or Dave (or anyone of course) would  care to answer the above?  I'm convinced that our hobby is hurt by it's lack of validity controls.  Customers encountering this sort of interaction are more apt to just give up on buying a dedicated audio system and instead  gravitate to all-in-one table top or sonos-like streaming systems.  Not that those are bad - they're not - but they will not keep this hobby alive.

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2 hours ago, glens said:

That's only because you sold them amps that only sound good on horns.

 

Had they demo'd them on regular speakers you'd not made sales.

Horns sound better than FR speakers, but the amps I sold in the last batch sound good on any sensitive speaker.  Not just horns.  They read the ad and knew the output wattage of all amps for sale.  None of them owned horns, but all of them had speakers of 95 DB/W/M and up.  I demoed on La Scala II and on Heresy II.  I always offer a full refund if people don’t like the amps once they put them in their system at home.  They all said that they liked the amps that I sold them and all of them kept them.  Months later, they are looking to get the horn speaker experience in their own homes.

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31 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

Tiz..  From Richard Clark's website.  There's a great deal of Q&A from RC to critics such as yourself.  I suggest you go to the website and read for yourself before further hectoring me.

I went to web sight and read what was there.  That’s not what I asked you.  Clark’s criteria include amplifiers that are not included in YOUR criteria.  So what are your criteria?  Specifications etc.  Once again, define “a modern amplifier engineered to be linear”. You are the one giving advice, and although you refer to it repeatedly, your advice doesn’t correspond to the Clark test criteria.  Pointing to the test is not answering the question posed to you.  Again.

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4 hours ago, Tizman said:

It appears that ODS123 went to bed without reporting on the state of his Cornwall III speakers.  I hope they are okay...

( Tizman, thanks!)

 

I feel guilty that an important day passed 27 days ago without being acknowledged, my MDF edition Cornwall III’s first birthday!  I am very grateful that they managed to keep their structural integrity despite being moved around countless times to optimize their sound.  Also, though we have taken the precaution to add 2 dehumidifiers to the room, there was still the ever present risk that moisture would intrude past the veneering and cause the speakers to swell to horrifying proportions.  Thankfully with prayers and luck, this didn’t happen!  ..So here they are today, enjoying some cake and filling our house with the forever awesome "Talking heads: Stop Making Sense."

 

Happy belated birthday Corny’s!!  (seen here enjoying some birthday cake).

 

IMG_0546.thumb.JPG.bf576f0cdf10a4252ffdab3ae20fb764.JPG

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ODS123:  I was worried when you didn’t report in on your Cornwalls yesterday.  I feared for the worst.  Perhaps an errant candlestick fell off a nearby table and chipped a chunk of the veneer covered fibreboard off a corner, or maybe one of your dogs had a bad day and made an unnoticed pee on the back right corner of one of the cabinets, causing the particleboard to swell and the veneer to delaminate.  Thank God all is well.  

Happy belated birthday Cornies!  I’m sorry that your owner missed it, but he was busy dreaming up an insidious plan to mislead newbies with vague, unsubstantiated, and unsupported claims that all amps sound the same.  It’s not his fault though.  Some guy called Clark made a really dumb test with too many questions and your owner got confused by it and went on a rampage.  If I was your owner, I would have bought you a nice SET amp for your birthday, so you could sing in your best voice.

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57 minutes ago, Tizman said:

I went to web sight and read what was there.  That’s not what I asked you.  Clark’s criteria include amplifiers that are not included in YOUR criteria.  So what are your criteria?  Specifications etc.  Once again, define “a modern amplifier engineered to be linear”. You are the one giving advice, and although you refer to it repeatedly, your advice doesn’t correspond to the Clark test criteria.  Pointing to the test is not answering the question posed to you.  Again.

 

From:  http://tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/rcrules.htm

 

7. All amps must be brand name, standard production, linear voltage amplifiers. This does not exclude high current amps. Amps can not be modified and must meet factory specs. They must be "car audio amplifiers designed to be powered from a car's electrical system.". See NOTE 1 below.

 

NOTE 1 (from conditions 2 & 7)  This test mentions 12v and "car" amps only. The test originally began with home/studio type amps and was revised in 1994 for the car audio industry. This version dated 2005 is again expanded to include 120 Volt home/studio/commercial type amps.

 

The "modern" stipulation - which didn't originate with me - is from other summaries of the test found on the web.  If I can find one, I will.  However, I'm not sure how this undermines anything!.  If anything, it looks like R. Clarks criteria may be even looser - so use that if it suits you!

 

That said, one can infer from what's stated above that if the test originated in 1994 and the rules required that the amps be std. production, etc.. that amps 10 or 15 years old at the time probably met the "modern" criteria.

 

Ok?  Now, will you answer the question I posed to you, Dave and Dean?

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33 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

 Also, though we have taken the precaution to add 2 dehumidifiers to the room, there was still the ever present risk that moisture would intrude past the veneering and cause the speakers to swell to horrifying proportions.  Thankfully with prayers and luck, this didn’t happen!  ..So here they are today, enjoying some cake and filling our house with the forever awesome "Talking heads: Stop Making Sense."

 

Happy belated birthday Corny’s!!  (seen here enjoying some birthday cake).

 

IMG_0546.thumb.JPG.bf576f0cdf10a4252ffdab3ae20fb764.JPG

Do you live in a swimming pool?

Maybe you want to take them apart and paint the insides with urethane or something.

Congrats on the milestone!!!

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22 minutes ago, pzannucci said:

Do you live in a swimming pool?

Maybe you want to take them apart and paint the insides with urethane or something.

 

Egads, no! ..thankfully.  You see even though the vast majority of speakers these days - including some very very expensive ones - are made with MDF, some people here have denigrated my CWIIIs because, they argued, the best Klipsch's are always made from glorious 7-ply birch.  So strong were their opinions on the matter that they warned my speakers would not hold up over time even though they weren't engineered to be dragged from rock gig to rock gig, hung in amusement parks, or bus/train stations, like Klipsch's Pro Series were..  ..So I'm now trying to appreciate each and every day with them because one never knows how long they'll hold up.  I think the odds are in my favor though because every speaker I've ever had was made from MDF, each lasting years and years , AND a quick look at Audiogon one will find plenty of 30 year old speakers made from MDF that look perfect.  So I'm optimistic.

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ODS123:  What is a “modern amplifier designed to be linear”?  In your words, not Clark’s words, and with the specs required by your Objectivist stance.  Clark’s criteria include amplifiers that you have rejected, and slagged, in this thread, so referring to the Clark test link doesn’t cut it as a reply.  Beginners everywhere, and ignorant somewhat more experienced folks like myself, await your reply with baited breath.  

 

I can’t believe you forgot your Cornys’ birthday by the way.  Unforgivable.  Hey!  What’s that dog doing back there behind the Cornwalls?

 

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4 minutes ago, Tizman said:

ODS123:  What is a “modern amplifier designed to be linear”?  In your words, not Clark’s words, and with the specs required by your Objectivist stance.  Clark’s criteria include amplifiers that you have rejected, and slagged, in this thread, so referring to the Clark test link doesn’t cut it as a reply.  Beginners everywhere, and ignorant somewhat more experienced folks like myself, await your reply with baited breath.  

 

I can’t believe you forgot your Cornys’ birthday by the way.  Unforgivable.  Hey!  What’s that dog doing back there behind the Cornwalls?

 

 

I really have no idea what you're talking about.  Are you making an issue of the fact that at times I said "modern s/s" amps?  Well, maybe, but in other references to this challenge I also mentioned tube amps qualified so long as they made his criteria.  ..Move on to another subject Tiz.  You're big "gotcha!" isn't much of one.  And my Corny's say "Thanks!" :) 

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16 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

 

Egads, no! ..thankfully.  You see even though pretty much ALL speakers these days are made with MDF, some people here have denigrated my CWIII because, they argued, the best Klipsch's are always made from glorious 7-ply birch.  So strong were their opinions on the matter that they warned me that my speakers would not hold up over time even though they weren't engineered to be dragged from rock gig to rock gig, hung in amusement parks, or bus/train stations, like Klipsch's Pro Series were..  ..So I'm now trying to appreciate each and every day with them because one never knows how long they'll hold up.  I think the odds are in my favor though because every speaker I've ever had was made from MDF, each lasting years and years , AND a quick look at Audiogon one will find plenty of 30 year old speakers made from MDF that look perfect.  So I'm optimistic.

 

Many more years to enjoy the lovely formaldehyde stench emitting from them as well, enjoy.

 

You Get that crappy receiver yet to enjoy or are you worried it may sound sweeter than that Mac ?

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2 hours ago, ODS123 said:

It seems Diz, Dean and Dave are hellbent on getting this thread shut down.  I seem to have a struck a nerve with you three.

Why would we want that, we’re having a blast. 

 

I made the mistake of trying to take you serious, but I’m fine now. 

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27 minutes ago, jason str said:

 

Many more years to enjoy the lovely formaldehyde stench emitting from them as well, enjoy.

 

Sad part is most of the furniture you buy today also is made of MDF or worse.  No way of avoiding it.

Those pretty edges they give furniture aren't there for looks.  They are there for hiding the MDF and veneer edges.

 

I think we're all going to go sometime, cancer or not. 

 

I find MDF pretty good though of course, not as good as plywood but for particular uses, sound, and cost, right up there if done right.

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Just now, Deang said:

Man, I never thought of that - MDF coffins. Please don’t let them bury me in a MDF coffin. 

It's fine if you have a nice water tight vault.  It allows you to get it painted any color you want.  Your pallbearers might not like it though.

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3 minutes ago, glens said:

The veneer-both-sides treatment doesn't hurt helps the MDF stability, I'm sure.

 

I feel a lot of demands are being made under a diversionary guise.  It'd be better to offer contrary evidence and seek refutation, to be fair.

Yes, when I build a speaker using MDF, I seal the inside with several coats of thinned titebond II to avoid any chance of expansion and lend extra sealing on the edges.

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