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Advice for Beginners - consider this test from an audio club

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8 minutes ago, kink56 said:

I am still attracted to the idea of the La Scala for some damned reason.

 

The La Scala is very symbolic for some of us. The first time my friends and I saw and heard them, it really changed the way we thought about loudspeakers and amplifiers. 

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I guess my point is how defensive some people get when I say have a problem with some aspect of a Klipsch speaker.  And it is almost always insinuated that it is something OTHER than the speaker itself that is the problem.  While this thread is all amps sound the same.  It has been suggested outside this thread that it is the amp's fault, or my room's fault, or my setup and placement's fault, or some even take the risk of admitting it is the speaker and only if I did this mod or that upgrade then all would be well. And I see that attitude creeping in on this thread as well.  My point it IS the speaker's fault and I resent that some people refuse to concede this.  I do not care if they like or prefer one speaker over another.  I just do not like to be treated as if I haven't been buying, setting up and being relatively successful in getting a halfway decent sound from my system since before I bought my first Klipsch speakers back in 1979.     

 

Any forum dedicated to a particular product would have to be aware there are shortcoming or problems with ANY product that is NOT related to the user's errors or ignorance.   The attitude that whatever PWK said or did or thinks is infallible, is quite silly.  Now my complaint isn't meant to be directed at the forum as whole. But it certainly fits some encounters I have had here. 

 

I put my review of the Belles on THIS forum and The Klipsch Corner NOT be a troll, but what would be the point of such a review on a forum that would totally agree with me? Preaching to the choir does is not helpful or informative.  Unlike non-Klipsch people, I do not have a prejudice against Klipsch.   I am quite drawn to them.  

 

That I hear the 150hz hump and then it is suggested "maybe it is something YOU'RE doing causing this problem" is what pisses me off.  And that there are those who admit it is a problem is a wonderful thing. And that they do not care, is just fine by me. But for those who cannot hear it, well that is not MY fault.   I am sure there are people who listen to my system that can point out problems either I have not notices or that I am resigned to living with.  I would not be insulted if they did. 

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17 minutes ago, kink56 said:

..and only if I did this mod or that upgrade then all would be well. And I see that attitude creeping in on this thread as well.

 

Friendly people just trying to be helpful. Sometimes things are not understood clearly because the words we quickly type don't always convey the entire depth of our kind thoughts.

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4 hours ago, Deang said:

I think I have to agree with Kink56. The older Klipsch stuff does have a resonant quality. It's never bothered me, but I do hear what he's talking about.

Dean, you heard an "upper bass thump" on Khorns?  Resonance on LS IIs?  On Jubilees?  At all speaker levels?

 

Where do you discuss that? 

 

Nobody mentioned it when we had a Khorn and a Jubilee side by side with an AB switch box and pink noise and demo disks for 3 hours (that was just with the Khorn).

 

"Upper level bass thump" is measurable, easily measurable.   Resonance is also easily measurable and you can determine what music will expose it, what music will nearly or completely mask it, and whether it is audible.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:

 

Oh it exists alright. It's a tiny 2-way box that is shrill and thin.  It's actually called the Super Zero.

 

But it has "ZERO" bass resonance.......

That would solve an upper bass thump.

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kink56:  You can find many different sorts of members here.  There is a great deal of knowledge and helpfulness available for folks looking to learn more about Klipsch.  I don’t think that anyone is denying that there were trade offs in the designs of most Klipsch products.  After all, there are trade offs involved in all commercial products.  What I’m hearing is that those trade offs are acceptable to some users more than others, and that each user makes that call based upon their particular setup and priorities.   Some of us go the route of modifying their Klipsch products to mitigate their perceived shortcomings, others DIY Klipsch inspired systems from scratch, all in order to get as perfect a speaker as they can get.  Most of us are well aware of the both the shortcomings and strengths of our systems.  Your last post indicates to me that you are angry and have an axe to grind due to some past slight.  I have, as have a few others, stated that there is a 150 HZ hump in LS and Belle response.  Both are small horns with trade offs required.  It is documented in this and other forums.  You are correct.  What is also indicated in this and other forums is the preference of many people for an all horn speaker system, of reasonable size, despite this and other shortcomings.  

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1 hour ago, kink56 said:

Yes, I can understand why you would.  When it comes to imaging and soundstage the NHT do a better job.  In fact I have Super zeros in my garage with a cheapo Infinity subwoofer, the are quite capable of filling the neighborhood with sound driven by a 50wpc NAD integrated.   But, I would MUCH rather have my Forte or even Heresys over the Super Ones or Super Zeros.  But I would not want the Belles over any other speaker I have ever had in my life.     And I am still curious how the La Scala IIs sound. If that hump has been addressed or not. I am still attracted to the idea of the La Scala for some damned reason. 

I can honestly say, the new AK5 LS II has no resonance (audible at least) and no bass thump anywhere.

20181006_114411.jpg

20181006_112324.jpg

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2 minutes ago, dwilawyer said:

That would solve an upper bass thump.

But then again I am talking Super Ones, not Super Zeros.

SuperOne
  • System Type: 2-way acoustic suspension.
  • Drivers: 6.5" long-throw woofer and 1" fluid cooled soft dome tweeter (video shielded drivers)
  • In-room Response: 57Hz-25KHz +/-3dB.
  • Sensitivity: 86dB @ 2.83V/M.
  • Impedance: 8 ohms nom.,(6 min.)

Compare Belles:

BANDWIDTH: 45 Hz-17 kHz + 5 dB    I would say that the 150hz hump is not eliminated because of the bass extension of the Super Ones. 

But you know what else would resolve that hump?

Rogers Studio 1

Rogers Studio 1A

ProAc EBT

ProAc Super Towers

Paradigm Studio 20 V3

NHT 2.5

ProAc Response 1S

ProAc Response D2

Forte I

Forte III

Heresy II

Heresy III

 

Some of these speakers go lower and flatter than even Forte speakers do. 

 

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2 minutes ago, dwilawyer said:

I can honestly say, the new AK5 LS II has no resonance (audible at least) and no bass thump anywhere.

20181006_114411.jpg

20181006_112324.jpg

Well that is encouraging. And they are gorgeous. 

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My understanding of the Belle, LS and LS II is that the “resonance” is about the design of the horn, and not about the cabinet thickness.  Am I incorrect?

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Time has passed and you, Kink56, have been here since then and have read the question I am certain. What CD are you referring to?

6 hours ago, kink56 said:

I would love to go to every member's house with my one CD that fully demonstrates what I am talking about, and take a poll on who can hear (or better term notice) what my objection is with Klipsch bass bins. 

I for one would like to establish a base line for your claim and this begins with the CD DVD or whatever you say will prove things. You do have one don't you?

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5 minutes ago, Tizman said:

My understanding of the Belle, LS and LS II is that the “resonance” is about the design of the horn, and not about the cabinet thickness.  Am I incorrect?

 

Any resonance should be considered a flaw in the design, material type and thickness should be taken into consideration and fixed during prototype.

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6 minutes ago, Dave A said:

Time has passed and you, Kink56, have been here since then and have read the question I am certain. What CD are you referring to?

I for one would like to establish a base line for your claim and this begins with the CD DVD or whatever you say will prove things. You do have one don't you?

On page 69 I stated the CD title and artist and track I use to very quickly, and without any doubt, shows the peak resonance of the Belles I had and the K-Horns I heard at another's house. 

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9 minutes ago, Tizman said:

My understanding of the Belle, LS and LS II is that the “resonance” is about the design of the horn, and not about the cabinet thickness.  Am I incorrect?

There were two things I have found with the La Scalas. The K-77 is shrill for my tastes and the DE120 is much better. At higher volumes you could take and clamp a board to each side of the La Scala and the sound would become more musical and less strident. The best set I ever had was a one piece LSI with fiberglass and aluminum trim. This reinforced or dampened or did both to the side walls and they were the sweetest La Scalas I have ever had. Best in 7 sets that have gone through here. Yes the sidewalls were to thin in my opinion. At one time when I was thinking of making some it would have had 1" sides.

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On 1/12/2019 at 6:02 PM, kink56 said:

In my case I heard this upper bass thump and ANY SPL.   If a speaker requires a significant mod to be suitable, then I consider it unsuitable I went to a person's house who had K-horns and the same problem was present. Although he did not notice it.  So, I guess it matters what particular things you listen for or notice. 

I misunderstood.  Are you saying an upper bass thump on an LS I or hump?

 

You heard the same upper bass hump/thump with Khorns?

 

To my ears the LS 1 was so lacking in bass, hump or no hump, it reallly wasn't listenable.

 

Who told you Belle had good bass on here?  They need to be strung up.

 

Never ever heard anyone say they heard any type of a problem with bass of a Khorn, or Cousin Jubilee, UNLESS it was a corner issue, not sealing, blown woofer(s) or they didn't have a corner.  Outside of that you typically hear people say it is the best natural sounding bass they have ever heard.

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2 minutes ago, kink56 said:

On page 69 I stated the CD title and artist and track I use to very quickly, and without any doubt, shows the peak resonance of the Belles I had and the K-Horns I heard at another's house. 

OK I see it now. Which specific version do you have meaning who made it and bit rate etc. Not all productions of the same music is of equal quality.

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14 minutes ago, Dave A said:

 

Sorry wrong quote.   I never expected the La Scala or Belle to have extended bass. I have subwoofers, that is a non issue.  The problem lies in the 150 hz area, it is a hump that at times can be so bad (depending on program) it almost sounds like a thump in the music. 

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2 minutes ago, Dave A said:

There were two things I have found with the La Scalas. The K-77 is shrill for my tastes and the DE120 is much better. At higher volumes you could take and clamp a board to each side of the La Scala and the sound would become more musical and less strident. The best set I ever had was a one piece LSI with fiberglass and aluminum trim. This reinforced or dampened or did both to the side walls and they were the sweetest La Scalas I have ever had. Best in 7 sets that have gone through here. Yes the sidewalls were to thin in my opinion. At one time when I was thinking of making some it would have had 1" sides.

So the cabinet is definitely causing the 150 HZ hump, and not the design of the horn? 

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"To my ears the LS 1 was so lacking in bass, hump or no hump, it reallly wasn't listenable." 

 

Exactly what I experienced in my room.   Not bass extension, just lack of bass, period with LS1.  Not a different kind of bass (horn loaded) just no bass. 

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3 minutes ago, Dave A said:

OK I see it now. Which specific version do you have meaning who made it and bit rate etc. Not all productions of the same music is of equal quality.

That is just one good example.  I heard this problem on numerous CDs include a whole host of ECM CDs I have to name some more.  It is not a problem with bitrate or mastering. It is a problem that does not exist or exists to such a small extent to the list of other speakers I have owned and posted above.  It is a problem inherent to the Belles and most likely the La Scala and I dare even say (gasp) the K-horns, (albeit to a lesser extent). 

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