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ODS123

Advice for Beginners - consider this test from an audio club

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2 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

And how good would your Jubes sound with NON Pass amps/pre and quality cables??

Not as good.  Unlike yourself, Nelson Pass is an accomplished designer.  His amps are fantastic.  I own one of them, a very reasonably priced one, the ACA, that would be an excellent choice for a beginner that is also buying a sensitive Klipsch speaker.

 

3 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

Well, RC's $10K Amplifier challenge

Make every amp sound the same first, and then get people to try the to hear a difference between them.  12 out of 12 correct responses required to win.  I'd make that bet too.

 

4 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

Guadalajara Audio Club A/B test

A DR near-field speaker listened to not in the near-field.  All components different from one another in the two setups tested.  A dumb test.

 

Proof?

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Dave A said:

DEFLECT ALERT!     So why are you not telling us your recommended beginner's basic, pragmatic, and affordable system components?

 

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20 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

 

okay... and how good would those Jubes sound w/ non-Pass amps (say, Onkyo AVR) and generic cables??  ..Probably just as good.  - just sayin'.

 

=== in closing, and yeah I’m finished here, just this evening within the last two hours I removed the SS Pass gear and inserted a tube integrated from a highly respected maker. Fifteen minutes, a few tunes, flip the switch off and it’s back on the shelf. So no, and although the gear itself is apples to oranges, It Did Not Sound As a Good. Or Remotely Similar. 

Ive embarrassed myself to have participated in what has become an obvious bait, switch and troll. Out —

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6 minutes ago, richieb said:

in closing, and yeah I’m finished here

Good move richieb.  I almost did the same a few dozen pages back, but jumped back in because it's simultaneously annoying and entertaining.  I'm feeling like it's time to permanently bail as well.  No beginner in their right mind would read through this ridiculous thread anyway, and there is enough good info in here to counter the dumbness.  Enjoy your Pass gear.  It's excellent stuff.

 

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8 minutes ago, Tizman said:

Good move richieb.  I almost did the same a few dozen pages back, but jumped back in because it's simultaneously annoying and entertaining.  I'm feeling like it's time to permanently bail as well.  No beginner in their right mind would read through this ridiculous thread anyway, and there is enough good info in here to counter the dumbness.  Enjoy your Pass gear.  It's excellent stuff.

 

This thread is not for beginners it is for the entertainment of forum members. If you don't lose sight of that nor take OD to seriously it is great entertainment sprinkled with good things from other people.

 

 

DEFLECT ALERT!     So why are you not telling us your recommended beginner's basic, pragmatic, and affordable system components? 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Tizman said:

Make every amp sound the same first, and then get people to try the to hear a difference between them.  12 out of 12 correct responses required to win.  I'd make that bet too.

 

Be fair.  Evidently all it takes to make them sound the same is precise gain control between them and keeping them from clipping,.

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2 hours ago, glens said:

Be fair.  Evidently all it takes to make them sound the same is precise gain control between them and keeping them from clipping,.

I believe that it goes beyond that.  It isn't just gain and clipping.  There is also EQ applied as needed to present the same frequency response at the listening position, if I remember correctly.  In the real world outside of the "Challenge", amps are what they are, and are not modified by measuring with test equipment and adjusting with equalizers to sound identical to each other.  The need to fiddle with the output of an amplifier is effectively proof that amplifiers sound different, is it not?  Also, amps clip on loud transients.  Especially on low sensitivity speakers.  Some clip gracefully, and some don't.  Is this not supposed to count?  In short, the "Challenge" has nothing to do with what happens in the real world. 

 

 

 

     

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The OP loves tone controls and pays lip service to linearity, but once you use a tone control, doesn't linearity go down the toilet?  I'm not talking about using pink noise and measuring equipment (or ears) to measure the frequency linearity of an amp and loudspeaker in a room, at the listening position, and then equalizing for a balanced and linear frequency response.  I'm talking about using a very granular tone control to change the frequency response on the fly to suit your tastes on a song by song basis.  What does doing the latter have to do with linearity?  Frequency linearity is linearity.  Modifying the frequency response with a tone control creates un-linearity.  Using a tone control is the application of individual taste at the expense of linearity.

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3 hours ago, Tizman said:

The OP loves tone controls and pays lip service to linearity, but once you use a tone control, doesn't linearity go down the toilet? 

 

I think it's ridiculous to eschew tone controls because they damage the signal or they "alter what was intended by the artist" then insist on an amplifier that is basically one BIG tone control, one which affects ALL songs.

 

I will seldom use bass/treble controls, but when I do it's to make an otherwise unlistenable song enjoyable. I Can't imagine ever owning an amp without them, or a mono function.  The "purity" argument against them - that their presence audibly damages the signal even when at "0" or defeated - is pure audiophoolery.  Ever see a mixing board??  Why doesn't the 500 or so signal breaks on a mixing board turn the signal into something unrecognizable?  It doesn't of course.  ..Nor does the handful of signal breaks created by adding tone controls.  

 

Ask someone who sells ultra-sound, MRI, or CT Scans machines to hospitals if "each additional toggle and switch on those very important and sophisticated devices perceptibly reduces the sharpness of the image or signal?"  ..They'll look at you like you're insane.

 

 

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Comparing sound production to sound reproduction is a straw man argument that is ridiculous at best.....

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2 minutes ago, Shakeydeal said:

Comparing sound production to sound reproduction is a straw man argument that is ridiculous at best.....

 

Not sure what you're saying here but as a starting point I suggest you revisit the def. of a "Straw Man" argument.  Your remark doesn't seem to apply.

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19 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

 

Not sure what you're saying here but as a starting point I suggest you revisit the def. of a "Straw Man" argument.  Your remark doesn't seem to apply.

And your recommended beginner's basic, pragmatic, and affordable system components are????

Well here we go. Up early and much to my delight the Klipsch Onion staff is on the job. 🤣

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10 minutes ago, Dave A said:

And your recommended beginner's basic, pragmatic, and affordable system components are????

Well here we go. Up early and much to my delight the Klipsch Onion staff is on the job. 🤣

 

How about an Onkyo or Yamaha integrated (or AVR), a cheap-*** DVD player for playing CDs, and an Apple Airport Express (for streaming from iPhones, laptops, etc..) and a pair of MDF-edition Heresy IIIs (if budget allows, if not, one of Klipsch's less expensive floor-standers)?  Work for you? 

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Well if a person were to ask me what kind of AVR to get I would not say Onkyo or Yamaha and not identify one out of the dozens out there. Not very specific there for the poor beginner and I must say the reasons for those selections, whatever they were, are somewhat nebulous. Specific models and why for instance would contribute SO much more than vague generalities.

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1 hour ago, ODS123 said:

I think it's ridiculous to eschew tone controls because they damage the signal or they "alter what was intended by the artist"

 

I will seldom use bass/treble controls, but when I do it's to make an otherwise unlistenable song enjoyable. I Can't imagine ever owning an amp without them, or a mono function.  The "purity" argument against them - that their presence audibly damages the signal even when at "0" or defeated - is pure audiophoolery.

 

 

 

Once again I need to restate my support of these statements.  Some method of frequency response shaping was needed 60 years ago, and it is certainly needed now given how rotten so many modern recordings sound as recorded.  As we all know, some folks demaster or remaster recordings to make them  more enjoyable to listen to.  This may be a more "purist" method, but it accomplishes the same thing as tone controls in making a recording more palatable to that person.

 

And, somewhere in previous pages, a statement was made about a ganged stepped attenuator (matched to within a fraction of a decibel) being preferable to either a balance control or individual volume controls for each channel.  That is total crap (imho, of course)!  Recordings are often unbalanced between channels, room acoustics may not be balanced (not everyone wants to invest the time and energy in room treatments and EQ), and our ears certainly are unbalanced.  If one enjoys listening to a classical recording with the entire orchestra shifted 30 degrees to the side, all the power to them.  I sure couldn't take it........

 

 

Maynard

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31 minutes ago, tube fanatic said:

 

And, somewhere in previous pages, a statement was made about a ganged stepped attenuator (matched to within a fraction of a decibel) being preferable to either a balance control or individual volume controls for each channel.  That is total crap (imho, of course)!  Recordings are often unbalanced between channels, room acoustics may not be balanced (not everyone wants to invest the time and energy in room treatments and EQ), and our ears certainly are unbalanced.  If one enjoys listening to a classical recording with the entire orchestra shifted 30 degrees to the side, all the power to them.  I sure couldn't take it........

 

 

I would agree with you on this..  And not to put too fine a point on it but what about all those "purist" preamps and integrateds that lack a balance control AND fail to attenuate both channels equally and it's clearly audible and unfixable at quiet listening levels??  My Peachtree Nova would go completely silent on the left channel while still a bit too loud for 4am listening on the right channel.  It had a nice feel and pretty to look at but that was a bad fail, imho.  They tried to fix it but only improved it slightly.

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2 hours ago, ODS123 said:

Ever see a mixing board??  Why doesn't the 500 or so signal breaks on a mixing board turn the signal into something unrecognizable?  It doesn't of course.  ..Nor does the handful of signal breaks created by adding tone controls.   

 

It depends on the design on the board. I have worked with boards from a couple hundred dollars up to the multiple thousans of dollars. The specs may show them to be close to one another, but they certainly don't sound the same.

 

Yes, the larger ones have more functionality, i.e., routing, input/output busses, phase/polarity control, eq, etc. but the actual design of the audio circuit will have you wanting to use the more expensive one.

 

BTW,  using eq doesn't cause signal breaks but can totally mess up the phase of a single instrument. As ChrisA has shown in his de-mastering thread, the excessive eq and compression of a final mix can totally screw up a stereo/multi channel mix.

 

Bruce

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14 minutes ago, Marvel said:

 

It depends on the design on the board. I have worked with boards from a couple hundred dollars up to the multiple thousans of dollars. The specs may show them to be close to one another, but they certainly don't sound the same.

 

Yes, the larger ones have more functionality, i.e., routing, input/output busses, phase/polarity control, eq, etc. but the actual design of the audio circuit will have you wanting to use the more expensive one.

 

BTW,  using eq doesn't cause signal breaks but can totally mess up the phase of a single instrument. As ChrisA has shown in his de-mastering thread, the excessive eq and compression of a final mix can totally screw up a stereo/multi channel mix.

 

Bruce

 

Regardless of size or cost, my point remains: ..if every signal break in a mixing board had an incremental negative impact on the signal, the signal would become unrecognizable.  Conclusion: signal breaks don't alter the signal.   One of these days I'm going to cut one of my speaker cables into 20 pieces and piece it back together with splices and twist nuts then see if the channel sounds different.  Maybe I could do that with the interconnect from my cd-player, make a digital recording from it, post it here and see if anyone here can hear a difference b/w the intact and one with 20 new breaks.

 

And yes, of course an EQ and tone controls alter the signal.  That is of court the point when a song is otherwise unlistenable.

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And don't forget that even if the technician(s) were trying to achieve a truly lifelike balance, what we get on the recording is going to be an inverse image of whatever non-linearity their monitors provided them.

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59 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

 

I would agree with you on this..  And not to put too fine a point on it but what about all those "purist" preamps and integrateds that lack a balance control AND fail to attenuate both channels equally and it's clearly audible and unfixable at quiet listening levels??  My Peachtree Nova would go completely silent on the left channel while still a bit too loud for 4am listening on the right channel.  It had a nice feel and pretty to look at but that was a bad fail, imho.  They tried to fix it but only improved it slightly.

So what specifically would you recommend to a beginner that would work right regarding your comment?

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