glens Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 http://education.lenardaudio.com/en/14_valve_amps.html Don't stop until you get all the way through the page... There are items of interest sprinkled throughout the site and it's hard to pick which would be the single best example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizman Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 1 hour ago, glens said: There are items of interest sprinkled throughout the site and it's hard to pick which would be the single best example. My primary issue with this and other articles about SS vs valve anps is that, almost always, all articles assume that what is being reproduced, as in a stereo recording, is perfect/ideal. This is not the case. Stereo is a construct that is in no way a perfect representation of the musical event (in the best case) that was recorded. If you work under this assumption, that is that stereo is a flawed representation of a musical performance, conversations about fidelity become somewhat pointless. The source material is by definition a distorted representation of the actual performance. The question then becomes what amplifier topology best works with a stereo recording to make it a more believable representation of the musical event? The target is shifting, slippery, and difficult to meaningfully quantify. You need to hear it yourself and make your own aural observations and conclusions. There is going to be a bit of trial and error and personal taste mixed in to the final decision of what sounds best. Pointing to the “science” when discussing amplifiers, and ignoring the flawed nature of the stereo source material doesn’t lead to anything useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODS123 Posted February 7, 2019 Author Share Posted February 7, 2019 1 hour ago, glens said: http://education.lenardaudio.com/en/14_valve_amps.html Don't stop until you get all the way through the page... There are items of interest sprinkled throughout the site and it's hard to pick which would be the single best example. Very funny and pertinent, thanks. ...My favorite quote: " I describe the SET amp as an "effects unit" rather than a hi-fi amplifier, since it fails to meet even the most generous definition of hi-fi in all significant respects. This is a reasonable and accurate description. Naturally, if people wish to use the "effects unit" that's entirely up to them, and if they enjoy it, that's perfectly fine. What they must *not* do is try to convince me or anyone else that they have a hi-fi setup, because they don't". - Rod Elliott 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizman Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 5 minutes ago, ODS123 said: Very funny and pertinent, thanks. ...My favorite quote: This from someone who has never, by his own admission, heard a SET in his own system. How closed minded your religious anti-SET fervour is. It’s your loss ODS123. Or maybe not. After all, ignorance is bliss. Right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODS123 Posted February 7, 2019 Author Share Posted February 7, 2019 1 hour ago, Tizman said: This from someone who has never, by his own admission, heard a SET in his own system. I may at some point. Who knows, maybe someday I'll buy a (very) cheap SET amp just to play with. Heck, they certainly look cool. And the nice thing about Cornwalls is they are so efficient that they can fill a room with just a few watts. But would such an amp ever take the place of my current solid-state amp or any solid-state amp that may follow?? Not a chance. I want an amplifier that neither adds nor subtracts - which is what HIFI audio aspires to, right? I'd rather use an equalizer or tone controls to adjust to taste. ..Whatever an SET amp does, it does to EVERY song, whether it needs the adjustment or not. Again, I find it it interesting that so many purists insist on eschewing tone controls because they alter the signal but they wholeheartedly embrace the idea of SET amps. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizman Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 I wholeheartedly embrace the things that I have heard in my system that make my listening experience the best that it can be, to my own ears. Nothing more, and nothing less. You have no preference, yet feel free to comment on other people’s preferences. That’s what is wrong with your posts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Bum Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Wow. I agree w/ Tiz. Stereo is audio trickery, using two channel recordings that are a far cry from a real musical event, and played back purely for the amusement of the listener. It's essentially just a trip toy, and the best measuring kit, or that which adheres to prevailing engineering orthodoxy, may not provide the most natural sounding, pleasant, or compelling experience to the end user. I also agree w/ Rod Elliot's take on SETs, at least from a technical point of view. However, I still find them (as well as single ended ss, e.g. the ACA) to be very "naturalistic" sounding despite the fact that they don't amplify particularly well by prevailing metrics. The music always connects, and draws me in. Not sure if this impression results because of their flaws or in spite of them. Probably something to do with the inherent lack of crossover distortion, if I had to pin it down reductively. Or perhaps I just like distortion. I can live with that too. 48 minutes ago, ODS123 said: Who knows, maybe someday I'll buy a (very) cheap SET amp just to play with. You should try one of Maynard's (aka tubefanatic, our own resident sweep tube ninja) single ended tube designs. Or don't limit it to tubes, and try the NP designed ACA for ss se. Either can be done for just a couple hundred bucks...and you really don't need to spend any more than that, as both deliver the kooky hart-to-verbally-describe single-ended goods. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TubeHiFiNut Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 1 hour ago, glens said: http://education.lenardaudio.com/en/14_valve_amps.html Don't stop until you get all the way through the page... There are items of interest sprinkled throughout the site and it's hard to pick which would be the single best example. Completely irrelevant from my point of view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizman Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 49 minutes ago, Ski Bum said: Or don't limit it to tubes, and try the NP designed ACA for ss se. Either can be done for just a couple hundred bucks... I recently upgraded my ACAs to the new spec (1.6) that is currently for sale. It (they, actually as mine are mono-blocks) sounds even better than it did before. Highly recommended! Not quite a SET, but pretty darn close and, at 8 Watts a channel, similar to a 300B output. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakeydeal Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 6 hours ago, ODS123 said: I may at some point. Who knows, maybe someday I'll buy a (very) cheap SET amp just to play with. Heck, they certainly look cool. And the nice thing about Cornwalls is they are so efficient that they can fill a room with just a few watts. But would such an amp ever take the place of my current solid-state amp or any solid-state amp that may follow?? Not a chance. I want an amplifier that neither adds nor subtracts - which is what HIFI audio aspires to, right? I'd rather use an equalizer or tone controls to adjust to taste. ..Whatever an SET amp does, it does to EVERY song, whether it needs the adjustment or not. Again, I find it it interesting that so many purists insist on eschewing tone controls because they alter the signal but they wholeheartedly embrace the idea of SET amps. It's very hard to argue with ignorance such as that. It might be a whole new level of "ignorant" that before now, the likes of have never been seen. Shakey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODS123 Posted February 7, 2019 Author Share Posted February 7, 2019 2 hours ago, Shakeydeal said: It's very hard to argue with ignorance such as that. It might be a whole new level of "ignorant" that before now, the likes of have never been seen. Shakey I think the ignorance being displayed are posts that criticize without offering any specificity. ..It would be helpful to the discussion if you could elaborate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakeydeal Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 1 hour ago, ODS123 said: I think the ignorance being displayed are posts that criticize without offering any specificity. ..It would be helpful to the discussion if you could elaborate. Ok, elaborate I shall. Quote But would such an amp ever take the place of my current solid-state amp or any solid-state amp that may follow?? Not a chance If a tube guy made such a statement about a "linear measuring" SS amp, you would call for his head. IMHO, it is obtuse to only buy a piece of stereo equipment based on it's technical specifications and measurements. You aren't buying an oscilloscope, you are buying a component that is supposed to enhance your enjoyment of music. And finally, auditioning a cheap Chinese (or whatever) knockoff SET amplifier and calling it a day is NOT going to give you the whole story. But I'm sure if you believe all SS amps sound the same, you'll believe all SET amps sound the same. This is the level of ignorance I alluded to. Shakey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODS123 Posted February 7, 2019 Author Share Posted February 7, 2019 1 hour ago, Shakeydeal said: If a tube guy made such a statement about a "linear measuring" SS amp, you would call for his head. IMHO, it is obtuse to only buy a piece of stereo equipment based on it's technical specifications and measurements. You aren't buying an oscilloscope, you are buying a component that is supposed to enhance your enjoyment of music. And finally, auditioning a cheap Chinese (or whatever) knockoff SET amplifier and calling it a day is NOT going to give you the whole story. But I'm sure if you believe all SS amps sound the same, you'll believe all SET amps sound the same. Not true. ..I wish anyone who uses an SET amplifier to enjoy it in good health. They are entitled to enjoy the hobby and music in their own way. But I think they should acknowledge that they prefer amplifiers that alter the signal, albeit in a way they find pleasant. At this point I do not presume all SET amps to sound the same as apparently they aren't engineered to be linear. I believe it is much better to seek an amp that adds/subtracts nothing to the original signal. A listener can then season to taste using tone controls or EQ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DizRotus Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 I’ve been trying to ignore this masturbatory exercise, but feel compelled to summarize my take on it one more time before ignoring it until it withers away. Spend most of your audio budget on speakers; and All amplifiers that are identical sound the same. IMO and experience, all amplifiers are not identical and do not sound the same. If a “beginner” or self proclaimed expert feels all amps sound the same, God bless ‘em. If anyone perceives differences among amps, and prefers one amp over others — as I do — you’re still OK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave A Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 3 hours ago, ODS123 said: I think the ignorance being displayed are posts that criticize without offering any specificity. ..It would be helpful to the discussion if you could elaborate. Priceless!! Another great morning and here we are again with OD the Audio Expert regaling us with words of wisdom. Ninja class buzz word salad mixed to hopefully sound good to beginners splashed with a dash of pontification dressing as the Oracle of Audio deigns to educate the knuckle draggers. Specificity...... YES he said that HAHAHA! How many days of MDF now OD?🤣 25 minutes ago, DizRotus said: I’ve been trying to ignore this masturbatory exercise, but feel compelled to summarize my take on it one more time before ignoring it until it withers away. Spend most of your money on speakers; and All amplifiers that are identical sound the same. IMO and experience, all amplifiers are not identical and do not sound the same. If a “beginner” or self proclaimed expert feels all amps sound the same, God bless ‘em. If anyone perceives differences among amps, and prefers one amp over others — as I do — you’re still OK. This is not a serious thread it is entertainment for OD. Treat it as such and be amused. 51 minutes ago, ODS123 said: Not true. ..I wish anyone who uses an SET amplifier to enjoy it in good health. They are entitled to enjoy the hobby and music in their own way. But I think they should acknowledge that they prefer amplifiers that alter the signal, albeit in a way they find pleasant. Hmmm, so we are not talking about cheapo amps today I take it? You are a hoot OD and there is not one smug bone of superiority in your body. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 I'm glad to hear I'm OK! 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 I’m not okay. Chief thinks there’s something wrong with my hearing, seriously? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 What’s a zobel? oops, wrong thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODS123 Posted February 7, 2019 Author Share Posted February 7, 2019 3 hours ago, DizRotus said: I’ve been trying to ignore this masturbatory exercise, but feel compelled to summarize my take on it one more time before ignoring it until it withers away. Spend most of your audio budget on speakers; and All amplifiers that are identical sound the same. IMO and experience, all amplifiers are not identical and do not sound the same. If a “beginner” or self proclaimed expert feels all amps sound the same, God bless ‘em. If anyone perceives differences among amps, and prefers one amp over others — as I do — you’re still OK. Just to be clear, I NEVER said all amplifiers are identical and all sound the same. ..I said all amplifiers that are engineered to be linear - which includes pretty much ALL modern day sold-state amplifiers and even many tube amps (like McIntosh) - will be audibly indistinguishable from one another so long as they are operated as designed (ie., not over-driven into distortion). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave A Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 2 hours ago, muel said: I'm glad to hear I'm OK! This. By the way OD what is a "sold-state amplifier"? I need more specificity on this please.😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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