carlthess40 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 What is a dead blow hammer? And what is the purpose, ie what are we trying to accomplish? Is the assumption the solenoid is somehow stuck? My concern, maybe my thinking is that there is a known issue with "bad" keypads. My problem is I have never read or seen what the actual keypad problem is. Does it not "talk" to the lock mechanism? As was suggested earlier, is the current provided by the single 9v battery too low? A deadblow hammer is a plastic or rubber mallet with steel shots inside of it or ball bearings and as you swing at the ball bearings are at the back of it and when you it something the bearings swing forward and add more force , but with the hammer being plastic or rubber it would not hurt the finish and why did I say to use a dead blow hammer ? Starting at or around the 9 o’clock to 11 o’clock or 12 o’clock position around the keypad That’s where it may be located at and with that sudden jolt it may help release the the bind or rust inside the solenoid hammering it might help to loosen it up all this solenoid is , is a rod with the spring and a magnet that is electrically engaged to swing the rod in or out of the way 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted January 17, 2019 Author Share Posted January 17, 2019 2 hours ago, carlthess40 said: That’s where it may be located at and with that sudden jolt it may help release the the bind or rust inside the solenoid hammering it might help to loosen it up.all this solenoid is , is a rod with the spring and a magnet that is electrically engaged to swing the rod in or out of the way Since everything was 100% OK and then went to catastrophic failure immediately with the loss of the keypad, what is your theory? Is your thinking the solenoid was partially engaged when there was power failure and then needs to be reset, as it were? There is a known issue with the keypad, we know that, but I haven't yet seen exactly what the problem is. If I were guessing I would say that maybe half the combination was "taken" by the mechanical lock when failure occurred. That means if you try to input the combination it is starting with the numbers out of sequence. Of course that doesn't make sense because there is a Reset button which should start the sequence back with numeral 1 of six. My problem Carl is I just don't know enough to even formulate the problem, much less come up with a solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USNRET Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 I don't know if your son has engaged a locksmith or not but when we have issues with the COMSEC safes on the aircraft a local company (Lock Doc) gets them open while under federal agents eyes. The safes mounted in the aircraft are subjected to heat, cold, vibration....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted January 17, 2019 Author Share Posted January 17, 2019 5 minutes ago, USNRET said: I don't know if your son has engaged a locksmith or not I think he has contacted three local locksmiths to get estimates and opinions. I think the consensus answer is they THINK they can open the safe without damaging it but no guarantees. If they can't open it using the keypad their plan would be to drill out the lock, ruining the very expensive safe in the process and it would cost as much as $500. Scott has access to his agency's firefighter jaws-of-life type of equipment and they assure him they can open the safe, but it would be destroyed in the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USNRET Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 15 minutes ago, wvu80 said: I think he has contacted three local locksmiths to get estimates and opinions. I think the consensus answer is they THINK they can open the safe without damaging it but no guarantees. If they can't open it using the keypad their plan would be to drill out the lock, ruining the very expensive safe in the process and it would cost as much as $500. Scott has access to his agency's firefighter jaws-of-life type of equipment and they assure him they can open the safe, but it would be destroyed in the process. Such is life. No matter the cost for the safe burglary he needs to retrieve the contents. Lawyer up on the lifetime warranty yea that'll work.... Take the $ hit and be done. Take the remains to the firing range and have fun betting what gun / ammo will penetrate the very reason that I only have mechanical 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted January 17, 2019 Author Share Posted January 17, 2019 5 hours ago, CECAA850 said: So the battery is actually inside the safe? How did you replace it then or is there more than one door? The electronic keypad is on the outside of the safe and there is an external handle, the tri-handle type. The dumb terminal Keypad has a 9v battery which is replaceable from the outside the safe, attached within the keypad like a remote controller. It is attached via a small wiring harness/connector to the lock with the wires running into the physical locking mechanism within the safe. The locking mechanism physically holds the combination, not the dumb terminal. There is no other entrance to the safe, no secondary key entry behind the keypad like some safes have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted January 23, 2019 Author Share Posted January 23, 2019 Endgame: We are running out of things to try. He tried a magnet with 350 pounds pull without success. Vids he watched suggested 300 pounds of force was needed. I think he should bite the bullet and take it to a locksmith but he doesn't want to put $500 into a safe he paid $400 for, and still no guarantee it can be opened without ruining the safe. The nearest locksmith who works on safes is two hours away. Suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 I'd get into it by any means possible, retrieve my belongings and trash it. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USNRET Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Pay to open or sell with contents. Yes, I am aware of selling what is inside. Strong paperwork. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USNRET Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Bring to Hope, have folks bet they can open in one hour, gun retrieved, safe destroyed, fun by all money to museum 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybob Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Forget a love tap, give it a good thrashing...may feel better anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codewritinfool Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Bring to Hope, have folks bet they can open in one hour, gun retrieved, safe destroyed, fun by all money to museum I like this one. I would enjoy attempting a side-channel attack with an oscilloscope across a series R in the power lead to see if I could see a possible difference in good vs bad digits, then possibly leverage that knowledge. It’d require access to a working model too to gather data. Also, I might try an inductive coupler over the keypad to see if I could learn anything about what the micro is doing while trying digits. Just a thought. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richieb Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 34 minutes ago, CECAA850 said: I'd get into it by any means possible, retrieve my belongings and trash it. === agree. And obviously not consider another safe from Cannon. If not for what the contents might certainly be, ammo, I’d torch through the damn thing. And with due respect to the Officer, look to a company known for building TL rated safes made in the US, not consumer grade safes made in China and Mexico and sold through middleman— 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted January 23, 2019 Author Share Posted January 23, 2019 28 minutes ago, CECAA850 said: I'd get into it by any means possible, retrieve my belongings and trash it. I'm pretty much resigned to this plan, at this point. +++ I posted on the Smith and Wesson forums (they make lousy speakers btw) and a lock smith got back to me and said pretty much the same thing. He confirmed that $500 was the going rate to open a safe, then you have to pay to have it repaired after drilling it open, and pay some more to have the new lock mechanism installed. In other words, what you said. Force it open, get stuff, then throw it away. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted January 23, 2019 Moderators Share Posted January 23, 2019 Is what is in the safe worth much more than the cost to open it? I ask because if you don't open it you have to rebuy whatever is in it anyway. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlthess40 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Take a gas power chop saw to the bottom It’s the thinnest part of the safe and the plywood down there will keep the sparks away from any Ammo. Most people put the Ammo up top anyway Go rent the saw from a construction Rental store and tip the safe on the side and just cut the bottom out of the way. Keep a water hose near by and keep the steel cool and so no file starts 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 They don't call that company Cannon for nothing ... and therein lies the solution: Be sure to add up all of your time, and your son's and present it as a bill to the company in recognition of their efforts to help you. Do either of you have a lawyer as a friend? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JL Sargent Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Just use a nibbler like I posted previously to cut open the bottom. That way, no heat and no sparks to damage stuff. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Any way to drill a hole and put a fiber optic scope in there to look around? The ones that hook to your phone are pretty cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budman Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 call Romo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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