Accesories4less blames Klipschorns

[tromprof]

I would like to share my recent experience with Accesories4less, a company that I have purchased several times from in the past and up until now would have happily recommended. Now I would be a bit more cautious. For those who are not familiar with the the company, Accesories4less sells factory refurbished audio equipment , at substantial savings over new, and has a great reputation on this forum.

A couple of weeks ago I purchased a Yamaha A-S801 integrated amp from them to use with my Klipschorns. The unit arrived 2 days after ordered and sounded great. The A-801 has a lot of positive reviews and seemed as though it was going to live up to the hype. However an issue arose immediately. The amp would shut off after approximately  20 min. of use. It didn't get hot, sound didn't get weird before it stopped working, it just abruptly shutdown. It would however very happily restart and run for another 15-20 min. before repeating the process. 

Here's the fun part, when I reported the issue to Accesories4less and requested a replacement unit I got the following response:

"

Hi Glenn

 

I understand these are 105db sensitivity and they are easy to drive, but they are still 15” woofers that need some dynamic headroom and damping factor.

 

Why else would the receiver shut down after 15-20 mins? If it was simply defective, it should shut off immediately? It’s running for a short period, and failing, but will come back on which is a sign the speakers are incorrectly matched to the Yamaha.

 

Regards"

 

I immediately got on the phone with their support and asked if the suggestion was that Yamaha built an integrated amp that retails for $900 that was incapable of driving Klipschorns, and the answer was "Yes". What utter BS!  

To humor the person I was dealing with I did hook the amp up to a smaller pair of speakers to see if the amp would remain on (it didn't).

Turns out Accesories4less did not have another A-S801 in stock, thus I think the run around. They hemmed and hawed for several days about getting me one from Yamaha, but in the end I sent it back (at my expense no less!!).

I still can't get over that someones first reaction to my problem was to suggest the Klipschorns were the problem. I have a $15 Lepai amp that will drive them all day. 

 

[MEH Synergy]

No offense and not a good situation certainly, but these are REFURBISHED products.   Who refurbished them?   If Yamaha did the refirb, that's one thing, if Joe Blow did, that's another.   I stay away from refurbished products for this reason.   For a couple years I refurbished video game consoles and accesories and as long as it worked after testing for a brief period, items were sent out.  3 month warranty.   Surely most of what we "refurbished" would not have lasted. Just my two cents.   Not worth the savings to me.   

[tromprof]

Yamaha did the refurb.

[MEH Synergy]

1 minute ago, tromprof said:

Yamaha did the refurb.

In that case, I am surprised and would think that accessories 4 less would cut the BS and replace the unit immediately. I agree with you that the unit is clearly defective.  I am sure you know how to hook up four wires properly and plug in power, takes everything else out of the equation. Good luck in the resolve 

[Panelhead]

  Return for refund. There is something that fails while powered up. Could be electronics, a capacitor, even drift in a component that has made a loop unstable. 

  It will not get better and your speakers are not the issue.

[Coytee]

That does suck.... I'd be eyeballing a call to the CC company about challenging the bill once they get it back.

 

That said....  maybe that's your divine signal to jump from hard to drive Khorns to Jubilee's.....then you could buy TWO of those amps!!  Imagine the fun.

 

[kevinmi]

I'm pretty sure your K-Horns are telling you they want tubes!

[tromprof]

4 minutes ago, kevinmi said:

I'm pretty sure your K-Horns are telling you they want tubes!

 

Been there done that. 300B tube amp sounded great, foolishly sold it when the K-horns spent a couple of years in the basement doing HT duty. 

[richieb]

51 minutes ago, kevinmi said:

I'm pretty sure your K-Horns are telling you they want tubes!

 

=== I’m pretty sure Acc4Less is telling you they don’t want your business — 

[MEH Synergy]

5 minutes ago, richieb said:

 

=== I’m pretty sure Acc4Less is telling you they don’t want your business — 

That's what I'm hearing.

[DizRotus]

Did they refund your payment with you incurring the expense to ship it back?  Have they received it yet?   When they try to play “regular” speakers and experience the same shutdown,  they should at least refund the shipping, if not replace the amp.

 

My experience with Accessories4Less has always been positive.  The “like new” products have always looked great and functioned perfectly.  There has never been a need to exercise the warranty.  I have recommended them to friends and family with excellent results.  Given your experience, I will not continue to do so.

 

If I were you, I would do everything possible to get the ear of the highest level person possible to let them know that their response to your problem is unacceptable.  If I were that person at Accessories4Less, I would not want to tarnish the firm’s reputation, especially on a forum such as this.  I would want to know about this to be able to do right by you and to prevent such poor customer service in the future. 

 

Their explanation might have had some credibility if, when you returned it, they could not duplicate the shutdown from the load of ordinary inefficient speakers, but could duplicate it with efficient speakers.  Even in that extremely unlikely scenario, absent a warning against using the amp with efficient speakers, they should have accepted the return at their expense for a full refund.

 

If the powers that be at Accessories4Less would rather affirm that lame explanation in writing than replace the defective product, they will alienate me as a customer, as well as a referral source.  FYI, I am a small business owner and an attorney; I’m assuming Accessories4Less would treat this the same way I would.  If Accessories4Less is an honorable company, it will do the right thing.  If they don’t, please let us know.  Feel free to share my thoughts with Accessories4Less.  I’d be happy to provide them with order numbers to document my statements. I hope you were just unlucky dealing with a shortsighted person with little experience and no authority to properly deal with your problem.

 

Thank you for sharing this.

[tromprof]

19 minutes ago, DizRotus said:

Did they refund your payment with you incurring the expense to ship it back?  Have they received it yet?   When they try to play “regular” speakers and experience the same shutdown,  they should at least refund the shipping, if not replace the amp.

 

My experience with Accessories4Less has always been positive.  The “like new” products have always looked great and functioned perfectly.  There has never been a need to exercise the warranty.  I have recommended them to friends and family with excellent results.  Given your experience, I will not continue to do so.

 

If I were you, I would do everything possible to get the ear of the highest level person possible to let them know that their response to your problem is unacceptable.  If I were that person at Accessories4Less, I would not want to tarnish the firm’s reputation, especially on a forum such as this.  I would want to know about this to be able to do right by you and to prevent such poor customer service in the future. 

 

Their explanation might have had some credibility if, when you returned it, they could not duplicate the shutdown from the load of ordinary inefficient speakers, but could duplicate it with efficient speakers.  Even in that extremely unlikely scenario, absent a warning against using the amp with efficient speakers, they should have accepted the return at their expense for a full refund.

 

If the powers that be at Accessories4Less would rather affirm that lame explanation in writing than replace the defective product, they will alienate me as a customer, as well as a referral source.  FYI, I am a small business owner and an attorney; I’m assuming Accessories4Less would treat this the same way I would.  If Accessories4Less is an honorable company, it will do the right thing.  If they don’t, please let us know.  Feel free to share my thoughts with Accessories4Less.  I’d be happy to provide them with order numbers to document my statements. I hope you were just unlucky dealing with a shortsighted person with little experience and no authority to properly deal with your problem.

 

Thank you for sharing this.

 

When I told the support people over the phone that I was tired of fooling with this, I got the below response:

 

"For all refunds please be aware that we do not pay return shipping or refund any cost incurred to ship a product(s) either direction. Shipping expenses are paid directly to the shipper and are non-profit or a revenue source for Accessories4less."

 

I read that as regardless of where the fault lies, they aren't gong to loose any money over this (i.e. "screw you buddy"). I just shipped it out yesterday so they have not had a chance to refund anything yet. I did suggest in an email that since the unit was defective that they should refund my shipping cost. I will let you know how it turns out. Like you I have had positive experiences with them in the past and have recommended them to friends as well. Rethinking that now.

[DizRotus]

I hope you just weren’t high enough on the CS food chain.  Please keep us posted.  

[WMcD]

We've had similar reports here from time to time.  I don't recall the extent to which Yamaha might have been involved.

 

I suspect the cause is the low impedance of the woofer, which gets down to or below 4 ohms.  This may well be putting the amp into a protection mode.  In the long term this might be solved by finding the impedance switch on the back panel of the amp and putting it to "low."

 

Before experimenting further, please read the manual (attached in case one did not accompany your refurbished unit -- it's on the Internet too).  

 

The troubleshooting section has info on (1) recovering from a shutdown and (2) using the impedance switch after turning off the power.

 

BTW I see that elsewhere in the manual there is mention of driving a 2 ohm load.  I have doubts. 

 

Excuse me if I'm being smart aleky about the manual.  The dealer should have discussed it. If a trip to the RTFM repair shop does't give happy result I think you should get a different which may or may not have the same issue.

 

I saw someplace that the switch actually just makes the circuit less sensitive to low impedance situation.

 

WMcD

 

A-S801_om_UBL-1.pdf

[Chris A]

2 hours ago, tromprof said:

...A couple of weeks ago I purchased a Yamaha A-S801 integrated amp from them to use with my Klipschorns. The unit arrived 2 days after ordered and sounded great...However an issue arose immediately. The amp would shut off after approximately  20 min. of use. It didn't get hot, sound didn't get weird before it stopped working, it just abruptly shutdown. It would however very happily restart and run for another 15-20 min. before repeating the process.

FYI: this sounds exactly like a tin whisker problem, i.e., growth of microscopic whiskers from tin/lead solder connections. It happens over time and at room temperature, and is really not a function of the prior use of the electronics.  It's a huge problem that has had the attention of the IEEE for decades now, without a satisfactory one-size-fits-all solution.  It's also extremely difficult to find since the mono-crystalline whiskers can be so thin as to be invisible through any means except a microscope. 

 

However, sometimes if you get a amplifier that shuts down prematurely after a short time operating (and warming up until one of the tin whiskers make contact with its opposite polarity terminal)...like yours exhibited, and that's out of warranty, simply open up the box and start wiping all the little tight interstices that look to be soldered, including the PC boards themselves, and perhaps use a little compressed can gas to blow the smallest areas that are not accessible.  I've found that about 25%-50% of the time, the problem will change--and sometimes go away, indicating a likely tin whisker issue.  I always look at the output terminal of the amplifiers first thing and wipe them down, perhaps even spraying a very small amount of WD40 on the parts that are suspected areas of trouble to make it a little more difficult for the existing whiskers to make electrical connections in the wrong places.

 

Chris

[baron167]

Great to see the variable loudness! It's always been a favorite feature on my vintage Yamaha pieces.


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[tromprof]

21 minutes ago, WMcD said:

We've had similar reports here from time to time.  I don't recall the extent to which Yamaha might have been involved.

 

I suspect the cause is the low impedance of the woofer, which gets down to or below 4 ohms.  This may well be putting the amp into a protection mode.  In the long term this might be solved by finding the impedance switch on the back panel of the amp and putting it to "low."

 

Before experimenting further, please read the manual (attached in case one did not accompany your refurbished unit -- it's on the Internet too).  

 

The troubleshooting section has info on (1) recovering from a shutdown and (2) using the impedance switch after turning off the power.

 

BTW I see that elsewhere in the manual there is mention of driving a 2 ohm load.  I have doubts. 

 

Excuse me if I'm being smart aleky about the manual.  The dealer should have discussed it. If a trip to the RTFM repair shop does't give happy result I think you should get a different which may or may not have the same issue.

 

I saw someplace that the switch actually just makes the circuit less sensitive to low impedance situation.

 

WMcD

 

A-S801_om_UBL-1.pdf

 

You are not being a smarty, that is a reasonable concern. There is an impedance switch on the back of the amp (low or high).  I first put in on high and when the shutdown issue arose I tried low with the same result.

I always read manuals, though I know most don't.

[rmlowz]

I used to work in the industry (home Integration).Acessories4less back then was factory authorized to refurbish the product what failed out of the box. They repaired it and resold the product. It is a pretty big operation out of Apopka Florida. They are the Factory that refurbishes LOL. Not to mention any product names but we shipped failed products directly to them weekly. I have had the same experience they just can't believe that they might have missed something on one of their repairs.

 

[tigerwoodKhorns]

Years ago I drove K Horms with a cheap tripath chip amp with no problems.

 

Cut your losses and send the unit back and move on. 

 

FWIW, I used a Pioneer Elite receiver to drive palladiums (a harder load) and it worked fine ( I never pushed it) 

[tromprof]

Well I finally have a resolution. I mailed the amp back last Friday and they refunded the entire amount. 

They are not going to refund my return shipping but offered me a credit toward future purchases. 

Still bugged by the first response (Klipschorn too hard to drive, amp is fine), so not sure that credit is going to be used very soon.

In the meantime I have hooked up an older HK mid line receiver and am using a cheap Berhinger DAC. Sounds pretty good, maybe I was too quick to praise the Yamaha (before it crapped out). I think I will skip Yamaha and try something different, maybe even go back to tubes.