CECAA850 Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 OK, this makes it easier for me to understand. This is the schematic from an RF-5 which also uses jumpers at the terminal cup. Removing them and using separate amplifiers still gives you a passive high pass and low pass filter. I'm not sure however how you would determine the safe wattage rating for either leg. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 13 minutes ago, CECAA850 said: The crossover in the speaker or receiver? I'd still like to see a schematic. That would make things easier for me to wrap my head around. The amp for bi-amping is assignable in the Denon 3500's Menu options. https://usa.denon.com/us/product/hometheater/receivers/avrx3500h For the record I agree with you, I'd also like to see exactly how they (Denon, Onk, Marantz) does that. I've asked that very question in open forums and never gotten a satisfactory answer as to what is happening in the AVR in terms of XO and power assignment when the Bi-amp option is chosen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornukopia Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 1 minute ago, wvu80 said: never gotten a satisfactory answer as to what is happening in the AVR in terms of XO and power assignment when the Bi-amp option is chosen. The AVR sends out full band signals of equal power from each respective amp channel during passive BI-AMP operation. The split passive crossover in the speaker is the filter to each section of the loudspeaker. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daemonix Posted January 11, 2019 Author Share Posted January 11, 2019 4 minutes ago, CECAA850 said: I'm not sure however how you would determine the safe wattage rating for either leg hehe exactly 4 minutes ago, wvu80 said: For the record I agree with you, I'd also like to see exactly how they (Denon, Onk, Marantz) does that. I've asked that very question in open forums and never gotten a satisfactory answer as to what is happening in the AVR in terms of XO and power assignment when the Bi-amp option is chosen. nothing special, same signal to both parts of the speaker. you just duplicate. I will add a power limiter (from the settings) to 50/60% of max per channel to be sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 1 minute ago, Khornukopia said: The AVR sends out full band signals of equal power from each respective amp channel during passive BI-AMP operation. I don't think that is the case with a full band signal from both outputs, at least not with my Onk or Marantz both of which specifically have an electronic Bi-amp option. If I choose Bi-amp in the AVR and then connect the speaker wires to the speaker from the usual L/R outputs AND the jumper straps still connected, the ONLY sound that comes out is from the tweeter HF section. No bass at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 12 minutes ago, daemonix said: nothing special, same signal to both parts of the speaker. you just duplicate. Not true. See my post directly upstream. ^^^ When the Bi-amp option is selected, ONLY the HF signal is sent from the AVR to the HF section of the speaker. Due to my ignorance and extreme skepticism, the same you guys have, I checked. (I meant you guys are skeptical like me, not ignorant) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daemonix Posted January 11, 2019 Author Share Posted January 11, 2019 5 minutes ago, wvu80 said: If I choose Bi-amp in the AVR and then connect the speaker wires to the speaker from the usual L/R outputs AND the jumper straps still connected, the ONLY sound that comes out is from the tweeter HF section. No bass at all. hmm ... well I have to test then. Your Marantz has the same menu/config as my Denon. My hypothesis for "full signal" is that there is no config for the DSP crossover freq... so you can match the speaker XO freq with the amp. makes sense ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuzzzer Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 5 minutes ago, wvu80 said: Not true. See my post directly upstream. ^^^ When the Bi-amp option is selected, ONLY the HF signal is sent from the AVR to the HF section of the speaker. I checked. How does your avr know what output is connected to the woofers and what output is connected to the tweeter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 3 minutes ago, wvu80 said: Not true. See my post directly upstream. ^^^ When the Bi-amp option is selected, ONLY the HF signal is sent from the AVR to the HF section of the speaker. I checked. Not doubting you but that makes no sense. The passive crossover in the speaker provides either a low or high pass filter. What if the crossover the receiver supplies is at a different frequency? There will be a hole in the frequency response of the speaker by whichever driver isn't being supplied the correct frequency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornukopia Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 25 minutes ago, daemonix said: nothing special, same signal to both parts of the speaker. you just duplicate. Yes, but while playing music, the tweeter channel amp is not affected by the reactance of the woofer's EMF. Also, auto calibration (Audyssey, MCACC, YPAO, etc.) can fine tune each channel more precisely. All 5 speakers in my surround sound system are BI-AMPED. 16 minutes ago, wvu80 said: When the Bi-amp option is selected, ONLY the HF signal is sent from the AVR to the HF section of the speaker. I checked. Because of your statement, I just had to go and switch the HF and LF wires from my Pioneer Elite SC-LX901 to my passive bi-amped speakers. Seems that both HF and LF outputs are full range with the split passive crossover doing the filtering. I want to try my Onkyo in the garage later when I have more time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 21 minutes ago, daemonix said: hmm ... well I have to test then. Your Marantz has the same menu/config as my Denon. My hypothesis for "full signal" is that there is no config for the DSP crossover freq... so you can match the speaker XO freq with the amp. makes sense ? It makes perfect sense, and I agree with you. If my 2-way speaker has a HF XO point of 1500 Hz, what happens if the AVR in Bi-amp mode decides the HF XO point is 2500 Hz? It doesn't meet with my common sense how that would work. When I did my testing of the Bi-amp mode and hooked up only the HF section to my speakers with the binding posts connected, all I heard was those squeaks and squawks you hear with only a partial sound. Properly setup in Bi-amp mode I could hear some additional clarity in the mid-range, but I really had to listen "hard" and it was really subtle. There was no difference in the dynamics or SPL that I could detect. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daemonix Posted January 11, 2019 Author Share Posted January 11, 2019 1 minute ago, Khornukopia said: Seems that both HF and LF outputs are full range with the passive crossover doing the filtering. seems correct to my brain as most "basic" AVRs dont have a config for crossover freq when biAmping. 2 minutes ago, Khornukopia said: Yes, but while playing music, the tweeter channel amp is not affected by the reactance of the woofer's EMF. This etc is the reason I want to bi-amp (I also have spare channels of course). the final amps for each part of the speaker will not have to deal with the "load etc" or the other part which is amp-ed separately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuzzzer Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 3 minutes ago, wvu80 said: It makes perfect sense, and I agree with you. If my 2-way speaker has a HF XO point of 1500 Hz, what happens if the AVR in Bi-amp mode decides the HF XO point is 2500 Hz? It doesn't meet with my common sense. That's because the avr doesn't decide the crossover frequency. It sends a full range signal to each output and relies on the speaker's crossovers to filter out the frequencies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 4 minutes ago, Khornukopia said: Because of your statement, I just had to go and switch the HF and LF wires from my Pioneer Elite SC-LX901 to my passive bi-amped speakers. Seems that both HF and LF outputs are full range with the split passive crossover doing the filtering. I would interested to see if this implementation is brand specific. I'm interested in how your experiments come out. To be clear, choose Bi-amp in the menu, at the AVR disconnect the speaker wires. Bridge your speaker binding HF and LF posts with the wire connectors/straps. If a full signal is being sent from the AVR you will hear both the HF and LF sound. If it is a HF signal only, you will only hear a thin sound coming out of the tweeter, maybe a tiny bit sound out of the woofer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 8 minutes ago, wuzzzer said: That's because the avr doesn't decide the crossover frequency. It sends a full range signal to each output and relies on the speaker's crossovers to filter out the frequencies. That makes more sense than anything. You shouldn't have an active AND passive crossover on the same driver. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 7 minutes ago, wuzzzer said: That's because the avr doesn't decide the crossover frequency. It sends a full range signal to each output and relies on the speaker's crossovers to filter out the frequencies. That's not how it works on my two AVR's, but let's set that aside for a moment and assume what you said is true. When Bi-amp is picked from the menu, what the heck is the AVR doing? Sending more power to the HF and LF sections separately? Maybe we can reason this out. Other than my experiments, I've never figured out what is going on in the amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 3 minutes ago, CECAA850 said: That makes more sense than anything. You shouldn't have an active AND passive crossover on the same driver. If an AVR has Audyssey, that is exactly what you have, a crossover set in two different places. The AVR will set an active XO at the electronic level, then the speaker will have its own XO point. For instance if my L/R has a published XO point of 38 Hz, Audyssey will measure it and then typically set it on the AVR at 40 Hz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornukopia Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 Well I was supposed to be goofing off this morning, but instead here I am playing with my stereo equipment. Don't tell anyone outside of this forum. I just hooked up a pair of full range speakers to the HF assigned speaker out jacks of my Onkyo TX-NR1007 with BI-AMP selected in the Speaker Settings menu and it sounds full range. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 12 minutes ago, Khornukopia said: I just hooked up a pair of full range speakers to the HF assigned speaker out jacks of my Onkyo TX-NR1007 with BI-AMP selected in the Speaker Settings menu and it sounds full range. Interesting. It looks like the ball is back in my court as I'd like to confirm my earlier findings. My Marantz 6011 with RF-83's is currently hooked up in standard mode, no bi-amping. In the interest of science I'm going to go ahead and test both the HF and LF sections using the methods we discussed. I'll report back with what I find out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 11 minutes ago, wvu80 said: For instance if my L/R has a published XO point of 38 Hz, That's the + - 3dB point not the crossover point. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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