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daemonix

6000f and bi amp-ing (horn/woofer wattage?)

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20 minutes ago, wvu80 said:

I'll report back with what I find out.

 

Please do let us know. I would really like to learn if certain AVRs are capable of band limiting when Bi-amp is selected.

If you have time, can you try the procedure with your Onkyo again, just to rule out any possibility of an incomplete jumper connection?

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8 minutes ago, Khornukopia said:

If you have time, can you try the procedure with your Onkyo again, just to rule out any possibility of an incomplete jumper connection?

Will do.

 

The Onk is a little more complicated because it is connected to an Emotiva XPA-5 using L/C/R but I don't think that should make any difference.  It's right beside me and the rack is on wheels so it's actually much easier for me to get to.  I'll be more methodical and test it first.

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25 minutes ago, wvu80 said:

 

If an AVR has Audyssey, that is exactly what you have, a crossover set in two different places.  The AVR will set an active XO at the electronic level, then the speaker will have its own XO point.

 

For instance if my L/R has a published XO point of 38 Hz, Audyssey will measure it and then typically set it on the AVR at 40 Hz.

 

I'm sorry, but that is not correct.  Audyssey does not do anything like that.  It does not act as an active crossover to separate woofers and tweeters in a "bi-amp" situation using an avr.  I'm not trying to argue, just stating the facts. 

Audyssey acts as an eq, sets speaker distances, level matches individual speakers (not individual drivers), sets low end crossover points for speakers and high end crossover points for subwoofers.

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34 minutes ago, wvu80 said:

For instance if my L/R has a published XO point of 38 Hz, Audyssey will measure it and then typically set it on the AVR at 40 Hz.

 

This is for the subwoofer. Slightly different function than the main discussion of the previous posts

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7 minutes ago, wuzzzer said:

Audyssey acts as an eq, sets speaker distances, level matches individual speakers (not individual drivers), sets low end crossover points for speakers and high end crossover points for subwoofers.

I was too abbreviated (OK, incorrect :lol:) in how I put that.  Audyssey sets the High Pass filter for each speaker.

 

I'm not your wife, it doesn't bother me to say you're right.  :P

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8 minutes ago, Khornukopia said:

 

This is for the subwoofer. Slightly different function than the main discussion of the previous posts

 

Will you guys quit pickin' on me so I can get to my testing?  🤓 

 

Man, don't ever made a mistake with this group!  :lol:

  • Haha 4

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34 minutes ago, wvu80 said:

Audyssey sets the High Pass filter for each speaker.

And a lot more.

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Easy test, swap the wires on your speaker.  If the overall volume is the same, there's no crossover being applied by your receiver.

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Onkyo TX NR717, 7.2 AVR Bi-amp mode.  Output from L/R (or HF) output.

Klipsch RP-600M, 2-way speaker.  Both binding posts connected by OEM straps.  Speaker wires hooked to L/R (or HF) inputs.

 

There is full signal in Bi-amp mode, no question about it.  Both HF and LF sounds full with both tweeter and woofers sounding normal.

 

The only thing I question is I THINK the 600M sounded better in Bi-amp mode, maybe more full bass.  I can't qualify that because I listened to TV which was mostly dialog with some musical background.  I also listened with my ear up the the drivers, so I was listening at 3 inches, and back about 3 feet.  I mention this only because it was my impression, but I wouldn't put much weight to that observation as I'm not sure what I was hearing.  Either way, the speakers had a full, pleasant sound.

 

Now I'll try the Marantz 6011 the same way.

 

IMG_1311_small.thumb.jpg.34d3114ddace0c2761748d8c22c96ee2.jpg


 

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4 hours ago, wvu80 said:

I'm not your wife, it doesn't bother me to say you're right. 

hehehe best post 

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can someone give me an email I can contact klipsch support or tech? I can find anything online to ask the wattage question to them.

Cheers

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It probably doesn't matter so long as you're reasonable with the volume knob.

 

There's not going to be the same amount of power going to the high and low terminals since the power being used by each is what counts.  Sure, the capability will be present both places, but that's a different matter.

 

Your breaker panel in your house is rated at 200 Amps (probably) but the presence of the capability of thousands of Amps on the wires it's getting fed from doesn't trip your 200 Amp main breaker, nor the 20 Amp breaker your "stereo" is fed through, right?  Any breaker you have only trips when the load behind it exceeds its capability.

 

If an amplifier channel is producing what would be 100 Watts with a full range load but there's only 15 Watts worth of content at and above 1.2 kHz (if that were the crossover freq., say), then 15 Watts is all that will be dissipated through those wires.

 

I wouldn't worry about it.  You'll only be gaining a couple dB of headroom doing what you want to do, but it'll be cleaner near the top of what you can do.

 

--

Edit: (aside from minor cleanup due to having posted on my phone while enjoying a tobacco treat)

 

The speaker's internal crossover will limit what available power can be seen by the H.F. driver.  I just refreshed my memory by perusing the thread again.  I also looked up the Denon unit to see what's what with it.  From the manual (p. 48):

 

You can use the bi-amp connection for front speakers.  Bi-amp connection is a method to connect separate amplifiers to the tweeter terminal and woofer terminal of a speaker that supports bi-amplification.  This connection enables back EMF (power returned without being output) from the woofer to flow into the tweeter without affecting the sound quality, producing a higher sound quality.

 

What?  Sounds like a poor translation or something.  Back EMF from the woofer would be the result of the woofer's motion causing it to act as a generator, right?  [Must be what "power returned without being output" means.  I mean, how can something return if it'd never gone forth in the first place?]  But what does the notion of enabling this back EMF to flow into the tweeter (by bi-amping) mean, anyway?  And I'm puzzled how something not affecting the sound quality produces a higher quality; not affecting means not affecting.

 

Probably it should say something like "By bi-amping, back EMF from the woofer is prevented from influencing the signal going to the tweeter."  But even then I believe it'd be a specious statement,  The crossover to the tweeter would filter anything like that out anyway.

 

Using two separate full-range amplifier channels per speaker, using that speaker's internal crossover network, will undoubtedly provide for a beneficial increase in sound quality, even if only very minutely so.  And if you've got the amplifier channels available to do so (along with the extra wire) it's really a no-brainer.  At worst it can't hurt a thing.

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Did anyone tell Klipsch SPEC sheet is messed up?

If you were able to use an external crossover (defeating the internal) by just removing the straps then bi-wiring would not work and would blow the speaker because the internal crossover was removed from the circuit.  

 

Sorry, this thread is a little in the weeds.  Just stick to the bi-amping thread, add an electronic crossover to the amps going DIRECTLY  to the drivers.

Bi-amp in Pioneer and most AVRs sends same signal to both binding posts.  Can't have a crossover unless it is electronically assignable in the menus as all speakers require different frequency and rolloffs on each driver, not to mention EQ.

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Keeping with dual amplifiers that have the capability of the same gain will allow bi-amping using the internal crossover of the speaker to have the same balance.  All circuitry such as resistors and (autoformers) to function EQing the higher efficiency horn to the lower efficiency woofers.

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Yeah, it sorta got out into the weeds a bit, I think mostly because of the introduction/confusion of active bi-amping being brought in by other posters answering questions that weren't asked.

 

It seems the OP's sole concern is with sending too much power to the tweeter circuit, but I tried just above to allay his fears about it.  There just won't be appreciable power capability in that spectrum even being sent.  Also,  while the amplifier channels would typically be somewhat de-rated by using multiples of them full-range at once (power supply limitations and all), in this case I don't think so much that that would happen since total power draw wouldn't be much different than if only one channel each side were in use.  One thing I'm not too sure of would be how the clipping behavior would change, or more precisely, whether it would change.  If the amplifying unit internally lowered supply voltage to accommodate multiple driven channels (to avoid overloading the supply) then clipping would occur sooner, which would be bad (at least not good).  I don't recall seeing anything mentioned about that in the manual one way or the other.

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On 1/12/2019 at 6:57 PM, glens said:

"By bi-amping, back EMF from the woofer is prevented from influencing the signal going to the tweeter." 

 

Yes this makes sense and generally the "driver interference" I'd like to remove (I have extra channels too).

 

I also understand the IVR/power/current laws, looking for the specs I just wanted to check the limits (theoretical lets say).

Actually you got me "scientifically" excited so Ill scope it to see that sort of voltages I get with some test tones or songs :)

My older humble cave attached :) will do my tests :)

IMG_5869.JPG

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4 hours ago, glens said:

It seems the OP's sole concern is with sending too much power to the tweeter circuit, but I tried just above to allay his fears about it.  There just won't be appreciable power capability in that spectrum even being sent.  Also,  while the amplifier channels would typically be somewhat de-rated by using multiples of them full-range at once (power supply limitations and all), in this case I don't think so much that that would happen since total power draw wouldn't be much different than if only one channel each side were in use.  One thing I'm not too sure of would be how the clipping behavior would change, or more precisely, whether it would change.  If the amplifying unit internally lowered supply voltage to accommodate multiple driven channels (to avoid overloading the supply) then clipping would occur sooner, which would be bad (at least not good).  I don't recall seeing anything mentioned about that in the manual one way or the other.

 

This sums it up! Indeed a very good description. cheers 

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The key with these speakers are if you are really driving bi-amp'd sans internal crossover, the horn will take much less power because likely there will be some crossover components, such as a resistor, absorbing power on the upper ranges.  That is where you would definitely require less power on the high end along with lower power handling.  Without examination of the crossover, hard to tell based on the original specs.  Using the internal crossover, power handling should not change.  Cleaning up the sound as suggested earlier is possible.

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On 1/12/2019 at 6:22 AM, daemonix said:

can someone give me an email I can contact klipsch support or tech? I can find anything online to ask the wattage question to them.

Cheers

 

Deleted 'cause I don't know what I'm talking about 😶

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