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To Pre or not to Pre


Cornman

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  Thats been the question , at least for me the past couple months . Dont no why I never tried the direct approach before ( from source to power amp direct no pre ) . As I started to put togehter a system I ordered a few components . The B. Latino ST120 arrived first so not having a pre decided to give it a try with no pre .pushing the Cornscallas . Quickly I was smilling,  and thinking these Lation amps and the Cornscallas are a good match -good synergy ,sounds dam good .A few days latter a BAT vk30 pre arrived and I thought things are going to really get good now . Wrong,,, the sound was smoother but lost a lot of bass and dynamics .

  Ten years ago or so , Mark our Juicy Music creator posted in a lively thread that was going on at the time about Why WE need a Power Pre Amp. rather then a passive . Wish I could find that post again .

How many of you have tried direct and what was your experience ?

   I have not giving up on pre amps, I have two more pre amps ( Cary slp98p F1 and a Prima Luna Dialogue Premium ) on the way so more fun testing to be had . Hopefully one will take away some small harshness in some upper mid range fq . with out loosing bass and dynamics .

   If you have never tried direct, give it a spin you might be surprised, or at least its a good way to economically get started in separate components . 

 

 

 

 

 

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For a year, I ran a Schiit Sys passive switch box between my DAC, turntable and amp.  Sounded great - no complaints.  About 6 months ago, I added an active pre-amp with a 5-band analog equalizer.  It also sounds fantastic and it simplified my cabling.  My initial impression was the active-pre-amp smoothed things out a bit, but without losing dynamics.  

 

I think if you have great impedance matching and don't need to switch between several sources, a direct/passive-pre is perfect.  However, if you have to smooth out impedance mis-matches between several sources, and/or need an equalizer, bass management, or home-theater-bypass, then an active pre is best.  Assuming quality products, I think the slight difference in sound is related to how each method handles impedance.

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I agree Pbphoto , Impedance

matching seams to be one of the biggest issues and how unfettered ( original )has the signal become passing thru the pre .

 Shu the gain control was probably one of the reasons I never tried direct before . But my gear this time had gain control on both the Oppo 980H remote and the Latino Amp.so there was plenty of control. I am still trying to understand if there is any advantage too running the oppo at max output or is the quality still the same when i turn down the oppo signal strength .

 

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50 minutes ago, pbphoto said:

For a year, I ran a Schiit Sys passive switch box between my DAC, turntable and amp.  Sounded great - no complaints.  About 6 months ago, I added an active pre-amp with a 5-band analog equalizer.  It also sounds fantastic and it simplified my cabling.  My initial impression was the active-pre-amp smoothed things out a bit, but without losing dynamics.  

 

I think if you have great impedance matching and don't need to switch between several sources, a direct/passive-pre is perfect.  However, if you have to smooth out impedance mis-matches between several sources, and/or need an equalizer, bass management, or home-theater-bypass, then an active pre is best.  Assuming quality products, I think the slight difference in sound is related to how each method handles impedance.

GREAT post is great.

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9 minutes ago, DizRotus said:

I haven't used a pre in years.  My class D amps are fed a balanced diet directly from a Pono player.  The gain and music selection are controlled by the Pono.  The ESS Sabre DAC in the Pono player is eveyrthing I need.

I am going to be trying this this very week. I am going to run my astell&kern ess pro to a decware headphone tube amp and see what I get. The amp can also drive my speakers.

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14 minutes ago, Cornman said:

I agree Pbphoto , Impedance

matching seams to be one of the biggest issues and how unfettered ( original )has the signal become passing thru the pre .

 Shu the gain control was probably one of the reasons I never tried direct before . But my gear this time had gain control on both the Oppo 980H remote and the Latino Amp.so there was plenty of control. I am still trying to understand if there is any advantage too running the oppo at max output or is the quality still the same when i turn down the oppo signal strength .

 

You last point is a good one.  I would bet somewhere between 75% volume to max would be the sweet spot.  Try asking a tech at OPPO if you can?   Gain staging is important. 

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1 hour ago, Schu said:

My DAC has a built in pre... I bypass it in favor of the tube pre. Without either option, I have no way of controlling gain.... unless I buy a Khozmo

Buy the Khozmo. The new ones are sonically invisible. I may get another one for a pass/Korg project I will be starting soon.

 

As for the gain from a preamp....it depends on your amp and source. I did not need gain to drive my amp and adding gain ahead of it made the sound harsh. It sounds better with just the khozmo. I will be pulling the gain stage (and selling it) to replace it with a buffer. If I don’t like that it will be just the khozmo for me.

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14 minutes ago, Schu said:

I've been considering it for years. I even contacted craig to see if he could add a stepped resistor attenuator for the nbs.

They really are not that expensive.

The MKII sounds good, but the 64 step relay version is much better.

 

sorry OT.

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" I would bet somewhere between 75% volume to max would be the sweet spot.  " My ears seem to agree with you Westcoastdrums at least in preliminary testing . Somewhere around 50% the signal seems not to be saturated enough. I would like to hear that confirmed by Oppo .

 Reassuring to hear that from you Dizrotus , I suspect there are several others with similar experience.

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8 minutes ago, Cornman said:

" I would bet somewhere between 75% volume to max would be the sweet spot.  " My ears seem to agree with you Westcoastdrums at least in preliminary testing . Somewhere around 50% the signal seems not to be saturated enough. I would like to hear that confirmed by Oppo .

 Reassuring to hear that from you Dizrotus , I suspect there are several others with similar experience.

Gain staging/SNR 👂

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I've used a couple of cd players with a built in volume control with a variety of speakers, and amps. Although I used it primarily for testing components, I was not impressed with the sound in most topologies, except for the ones Maynard helped me build. He has an "ear-bleed filter" in several of his designs which also incorporate volume pots.  The sound is very, very good. Amazing actually. However, I listen primarily to vinyl. Not only do I need RIAA equalization, but I need a step-up for my Low Output Moving Coils carts.  Thus at a minimum, a phono pre is required. 

 

I am fortunate to own two stellar tubed pres:  The Anthem Pre1 and, best of all, Craig's NBS Pre-amp.  The NBS run with a Marantz 8b and Khorns using the AK Five xover is a match made in heaven.

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12 hours ago, Westcoastdrums said:

I would bet somewhere between 75% volume to max would be the sweet spot. 

I have an Oppo 105D and that is exactly what I've learned via much research on Oppo user groups, forums and other sources.  I will typically set my Oppo output to 90 and then control the final gain stage with the Mc C22 III.

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When I said earlier that I hadn’t used a pre in years, that does not include using a phono preamp when ripping vinyl to FLAC files to be played using a Pono player.  Naturally, a phono preamp with RIAA equalization is needed when playing vinyl using a Denon DL-110 MC cartridge.  Once ripped, I do not handle the vinyl again.  Other than the very few I keep (Kind of Blue, Time Out, DSOM and Sheffield Lab pressings), I trade in ripped vinyl for new buried treasures in the bargain bins of used record shops.

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6 hours ago, Ossidian said:

McIntosh MC2000 tube amp direct to McIntosh MDA1000 DAC. This is the way I like to hear my tube amp mostly. 

 

 

 

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Nice looking setup.... I would think getting electronics off of the carpet may be a good thing.... I wouldn't argue with you though for fear that you may bludgeon me with one of those power cords 😮

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9 hours ago, Westcoastdrums said:

Nice looking setup.... I would think getting electronics off of the carpet may be a good thing.... I wouldn't argue with you though for fear that you may bludgeon me with one of those power cords 😮

Lol. The amp is on 2" acrylic with 2" footers. The DAC is under 3" footers. The class D amps do not give off any heat on the bottom. Appreciate it though.

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