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Why we need audiophiles


Islander

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27 minutes ago, wvu80 said:

 

We need audiophiles to explain audio concepts they don't fully grasp to people in words that nobody understands.

Much akin to modern art critics. To each his own I suppose, but my working class roots and values just won’t allow me to spend like these guys do. One of the many great things about Klipsch (and a few others): very high quality sound without pretension that a working man can afford.

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2 hours ago, Islander said:

The Karma SS (Smoke & Silver colour) Kable in 8 AWG is still only $1.65 a foot, more than ten years later.

For that kinda price everyone should have good cables . There sure isn't anything wrong with a modest investment for quality.

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4 hours ago, Islander said:

It occurs to me that the cable skeptics have never tried any different cables to see for themselves what differences they might hear.  The attitude seems to be "Cables can't make any difference, it's all snake oil, so there's no point in experimenting with them, because it won't make any difference."  Sound about right?

 

 

No... that is NOT true whatsoever.   The dealer that sold me my Vandersteen 3A Sigs lent me both expensive interconnects and speaker cables (AQ and Kimber).  And I did precisely what I've been suggesting others do.  Hook the pricey cables to one channel (L or R), pushed my speakers right beside each other, then using my balance control and a Mono recording I switched back and forth b/w the cables.    Not I nor anyone in my family could hear one spec of difference.   So you are absolutely wrong about this.  ..Sorry.  This was partly why I began to doubt many of the notions of audio connoisseurship.

 

I've asked before and I'll ask again.  ..What do you think PWK would think about peoples' stubborn disinterest in scientific rigor as it relates to pricey cables?

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4 hours ago, ODS123 said:

 

No... that is NOT true whatsoever.   The dealer that sold me my Vandersteen 3A Sigs lent me both expensive interconnects and speaker cables (AQ and Kimber).  And I did precisely what I've been suggesting others do.  Hook the pricey cables to one channel (L or R), pushed my speakers right beside each other, then using my balance control and a Mono recording I switched back and forth b/w the cables.    Not I nor anyone in my family could hear one spec of difference.   So you are absolutely wrong about this.  ..Sorry.  This was partly why I began to doubt many of the notions of audio connoisseurship.

 

I've asked before and I'll ask again.  ..What do you think PWK would think about peoples' stubborn disinterest in scientific rigor as it relates to pricey cables?

 

Actually, I thought I was applying scientific rigour.  Maybe not a double-blind ABX experiment, but the first time it happened, I was surprised, so it's not like I was looking for confirmation of a belief I already held.  You're not guessing.  You did a test, and noted the results.  If you heard no difference, I won't say that you're deaf or close-minded.  I believe what you say.  I do hear differences with different cables, but that doesn't make me deluded or delusional.  The speaker cables and power cords that I use make my system sound better to me, so the cost was worth it to me.

 

As for what would PWK would think, he'd do his own tests until he was satisfied.  In his time, practically everyone used lamp cord for speaker cables.  They thought those cables were adequate, and they were.  Later, some people, including me, found that bigger cables make the system sound better.  In a similar way, cars and motorcycles used to use much narrower tires than they use today.  The engineers of the time felt they were using the most suitable sizes for the job, but today we use much wider tires, of greater diameter.  Times change, and performance hopefully improves.

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Rigor? ..How?  How did you prevent expectation bias from impacting what you heard?

 

I’ve shared my own experience with expectation bias before, and I’ll share it again here…

 

Years ago I bought a Monster power conditioner from my Vandersteen dealer to protect my expensive Bryston amp and new speakers. Though I was skeptical that such devices would improve how my system sounds, I couldn’t help but wonder if I would hear a change.  My dealer was adamant that I would.  ..So I pulled the plug of the Bryston amp from the wall, and plugged it into the Monster.  

 

To put it mildly, I was amazed by what I heard.  My amp sounded better in ways I couldn't quite describe. The sound was smoother, cleaner and just more "right".  ..Just to make sure I wasn't imagining things, I switched back and fourth a couple times.  Yep, it was unmistakeable!   I decided to go back one last time, so I unplugged the amp once more.  

But before I plugged it back into the wall my wife called me to another room to help with something.  Returning a few minutes later I decided to first switch on the TV to see how Federer was doing during the Wimbledon finals.  So I hit the TV power button and…..nothing!  ..I tried again, and…  nothing.  Huh?  
 
It turned out that during this entire exercise, It wasn't the Bryston's power cord I was switching back forth b/w the Monster conditioner and the outlet, it was the TV’s!  I laughed out loud but then felt totally embarrassed by just how much I allowed expectation to affect what I was going to hear.  Again, I (like you) I thought I had prevented this by having very modest expectations of hearing an improvement. 
 
Expectation Bias is very powerful.  ..And there’s no inoculating yourself from it.  It explains why Asthma patients who are given an inhaler w/ placebo medication report a 30% reduction in symptoms in blinded clinical trials.

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6 hours ago, richieb said:

 

=== I’ve read what Roger Russell from McIntosh fame has written - zip cord works well enough. 

I pay real attention to people that have two aspects. One they have technical backgrounds and two they like quality music. Then I go out and buy Monoprice 12g by the 100' roll. The dude that does reviews for profit or equipment I read like Science Fiction as entertainment. This review mentioned at the start by the OP is a perfect example to me of a someone who has deliberately cultivated a persona and word jargon du jour for profit and or to impress others hoping they will not have the ability to look past the erudite facade.

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5 hours ago, ODS123 said:

It turned out that during this entire exercise, It wasn't the Bryston's power cord I was switching back forth b/w the Monster conditioner and the outlet, it was the TV’s! 

 

That's a pretty good story.  :lol:  I haven't done that exact thing, but I can see myself doing that.  Thanks for telling on yourself.  B)

 

Quote

 

Expectation Bias is very powerful.  ..And there’s no inoculating yourself from it.  It explains why Asthma patients who are given an inhaler w/ placebo medication report a 30% reduction in symptoms in blinded clinical trials.

 

That doesn't sound right.  It's more likely that 30% of the subjects reported a reduction in symptoms, but I'd have to see the study.

+++

 

The fact is almost all the reports we have here of improvement/no improvement in sound due to cable differences are anecdotal.  It doesn't mean the results are inherently true or not true, it just means the results may not be generalizable or repeatable.

 

We don't all have to agree.  I do think we should respect individual differences.

 

 

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For those who think they have it all figured out these wise Quotes are from Richard Heyser a person whom PWK had tremendous respect for.

 

"The evaluation of the acoustics of loudspeakers and the room containing them proved to represent a microcosm of all the difficult problems in wave propagation." 

 

"Nature does not solve equations."

 

"The thing we call time in audio measurements and the things we call frequency are different coordinates for describing precisely the same signal."

 

"Pitch is not frequency."

 

"At the present state of sound reproduction technology, the audio engineer shares the professional goal of a magician."

 

"The effect that modern sound reproduction strives to achieve is the creation of an acceptable illusion in the mind of the listener."

 

"If we wish to understand how to 'measure' what we 'hear,' then we must deal with subjective perception and the illusion of sound."

 

"The actual sound field in a listening environment is not identical to the sound field which we may perceive..."

 

"The end product is the listening

experience."

 

"One of the worst-kept secrets in audio engineering is that what we hear does not always correlate with what we measure."

 

"Those whose principal professional involvement is based on the listening experience tend to develop a subjective viewpoint with value judgments seldom related to instrumental measurement."

 

"One of the most belittling experiences is to deride the 'black art' of a craftsman who gets consistent results by a certain ritual which he cannot explain and then to discover that his actions in fact held a deeper technical significance than we understood at that time from our simplified model."

 

"If we measure the frequency response of a system, and do it correctly, then we know everything about the response of that system. We have all the technical information needed to describe how that system will 'sound.' But the information we have is not in a system of coordinates that will be recognizable by a subjectively oriented listener...That is the root cause of the continuing fight between subjective and objective audio. It is not that either is more correct than the other...rather it is due to the fact they do not speak the same language." 

 

"The next time you hear an argument between a technologist and golden ear about the audibility of certain types of distortion...is it possible they do not agree because each have [sic] a view through a different window?"

 

"You out there, Golden Ears, the person who couldn't care less about present technical measurements but thinks of sound as a holistic experience. You're right, you know."


 

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On 2/11/2019 at 2:30 PM, mikebse2a3 said:

 

If you have any knowledge of basic electronics you will see many areas where an ac signal rides on dc potentials. Also RF leakage interference can be capacitively coupled into circuits including power supplies and across rectification circuits. That is why better equipment will use components/circuits to suppress RF Interference at any port entrance whether AC Power or Signal Inputs/Outputs points.

 

We live in a sea of electrical garbage being generated by equipment inside and outside of our homes so the possibility of signal interference/contamination is a real possibility.  Things as common as light dimmers and microwave ovens can generate interference that can be picked up in some situations. Heck I can just flip a light switch in the house and have had the sound mute for a split second on the TV.

 

miketn

This is why I'm using XLR connectors and Balanced Circuits. Plus the higher voltage capability increases the Signal to Noise ratio. I then dial down the front end of my amplifiers with the Potentniometers that are built in, or use an outboard unit. 20 Kohms usually does the trick. We don't need 26 db of voltage gain from a high voltage XLR balanced source (8 volts peak) with HORNS, so the net SYSTEM gain (via Horns' high efficiencies) is controlled at the front end of the power amp. Heck one of Nelson Pass' designs is unity gain and acts like an impedance converter to drive speakers with UNITY GAIN. So 5 volts from a balanced source is 5 volts on the output, which for a horn, is 25/4 ohms, or 6.5 Watts, which is 8 dbWatts added to 112 db/watt drivers on a K402 equals a "stupid loud" 120 db peak.

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On 2/11/2019 at 2:50 PM, mikebse2a3 said:

 

Heck I’ve in a few rare occasions serviced equipment where an electrical trace layout on a circuit board was enough to pickup a radio station which was then amplified and heard through the system.

 

miketn

In God we trust. All other must SHIELD their PRECIOUS signals!!

 

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On 2/11/2019 at 3:55 PM, YK Thom said:

I wouldn't feel too bad for us. Many are early CD adopters like myself who tired of flipping the album, putting up with special cleaning rituals, anti-static guns, snap crackle and pop, replacing cartridges, looking for better sounding cartridges etc etc. To each his own, but I've been there done that and jumped on the CD train as soon as it first pulled into the station.

So did I, back in '83 when all you could get was a Sony Player. CD's were rare in the record stores, but my first "tests" were done with "One on One" by Bob James/Earl Klugh, and "The Nightfly" by Steely Dan's Donald Fagen (still a Reference Recording for me ven today). One was an Analog Master, and Fagen's was Digitally Mastered. It was LP vs CD on both. The CD won every time. End or R&D for me, so I stopped buying Vinyl.

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16 hours ago, glens said:

Personally, I was more impressed by the guy who built L C R horns into his room and calibrated them with his son's drum kit in the mouth of the middle.  Thread is some months old now.

That was Richard Burwen. A guy by the name of Dave White (an audiophile I used to work with) went to his house many times. Burwen was/is a genius and developed many unique electronic products. Dave told me he could design Servo circuits in his head while telling you a joke. High IQ guy who started in electronics as a kid. Dave White had built his own Electrostatic Speakers with Trans Line subs (the only ones I ever heard that could play LOUD). He drove them with Transformerless Tube amps that were in his basement, since Electro Stats are high voltage devices. He used to have the President of Columbia records over for dinner so they could determine the quality of Master Tapes, that's how good Dave's system was. Best Electrostatics I ever heard to this day.

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