glens Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 16 hours ago, Islander said: I don't know if I could hear any difference from the twisted pair construction either, but maybe there isn't all the much RFI floating around all the wires and cables in my system for it to cancel. The phone companies use twisted pair wires for a reason, so if it costs about the same as side-by-side cables, why not go for it? Maybe because they're using relatively-low-voltage signals over thousands of feet on tiny-gauge wire, ya think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glens Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 Okay, I've had enough unless some compelling direct question gets asked or a specific response is required. I'd thought this thread would be as much fun as the recent ongoing one in "General" but that's decidedly not the case. The other one is fun, this one's just bizarre. (Post was in progress before the preceding showed up, so that's not the reason. The reason came before, but has not been modified by the preceding.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybob Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 Dang interesting discussion. Have nothing against twisted pair and as long as the insulation is intact, Telco or not, certainly looks better, or, more orderly. IMLO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codewritinfool Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 I have had better luck with just single runs of coat hangers. Twist too many together and you get something similar to a toroidal flux inductor and those are dangerous.Please don’t try this, Bob. It is far too dangerous and we need you around. I once twisted up some bread ties into a calculated geometry and put them in the microwave. They caught fire and I vowed right then and there never to put a microwave near my Klipschorns. Heck, I won’t even take microwave popcorn near them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybob Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 5 minutes ago, billybob said: Dang interesting discussion. Have nothing against twisted pair and as long as the insulation is intact, Telco or not, certainly looks better, or, more orderly. IMLO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybob Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 Sometimes I edit so, pay no mind of course. It occurs to me for right or wrong that lacking measurement, we are embarking into the theoretical unknown, which is measured by feedback of anecdotal evidence. To me, this is fine as, discoveries both recognized or not occur also...imho Once again interesting to my subjective understanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glens Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 22 minutes ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said: 26 minutes ago, billybob said: Dang interesting discussion. Not to all, but that is to be expected. But you've got nothing to say about the time I spent making a spreadsheet and reporting my findings... Don't you like it when a doggy tugs on the curtain you're behind? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybob Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 Did not know you have a spreadsheet. Industrious and empirical evidence to some degree helps some of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlson3 Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 re: coat hangers (the steel ones from the past), one of the funkiest and poor sounds I ever heard was to put a steel bastard file in series with a tweeter. I don't think there was much attenuation/resistance but the result sounded terrible. (DJK agreed on that effect at the time) so it might not be good to have much iron in the conductive path. Many capacitors had copper clad steel leads but don't remember those sounding really "off" like the file and alligator clips. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybob Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 Will go farther. Approaching science in a non-emotional way as one knows is a proven procurer of hard data one may rely upon. The inspirational drive is not dampened by doing so. Result can, in a collaborative way, in this instance a forum derive beneficial results to ones self and to others. Having retired from my field, can now reflect upon the satisfaction derived from the human discourse from my coworkers at times and at other times, directly from the end users of my efforts. Sometime I find that given the lack of or, the access to fine measurement tools, I still must come to my own conclusion, at least for the moment. In the field of inquiry that electronics brings us to, sometime the result is nuanced. Perception then, is a vital tool to have in ones kit. Know this makes no sense to some, but the chance to speak to and associate with others of likeminded interest here, is worth all the angst that is found at times here. Enjoy the to and fro, back and forth and, like the sometime heated discussion which to those not involved may appear volatile at times. Good fortune! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlson3 Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 from those photos, Jeff's 400lb "beginner" amp would make a CJ Premier I or ARC D150 look like a toy - that was an intense project. Jeff - how heavy is your current (and evolved) triode amp? one thing about relatively high output Z amps - I'd guess with such lowpass as the Klipschorn used in later iteration, there would be less "boost" than with regular solid state - or high feedback pp tube amps, so tonal balance could be somewhat different https://i.imgur.com/wayOdCQ.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/C6GUkvx.png Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave A Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 你比一只臭虫更疯狂 😁 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlson3 Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 I know that applies to me - could the same remark apply to some of the "high end" audio founders? - or would they be somewhat less so? In tube audio, I think some "designers" ignored traditional loadline rules for max swing, and set operating points by "ear" - of course power supply impedance effects with tube (single ended for sure) have audible outcomes. One good mod for the old Precision Fidelity C7 phono stage was to throw out its chip regulator, replace with Zener referenced transistor, then use a small RC decoupler for the 1st stage - subjectively that seemed an improvement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 Stereo... Bwahahaha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlson3 Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 Hi Jeff 46lb is pretty reasonable. re: RC time constants in a SET with no global FB, the output transformer's finite primary L and core saturation effects may dominate the effective low end. Jeff's use of a Loftin-White audio circuit IIRC would have a cap only across the output tube's cathode resistor as the plate of the gain stage is directly coupled to the grid of the output tube. (the best cap = "no cap" could apply) In the land of Klipsch and Altec, 2 watts might suffice for a fair amount of listening. Back in the 1990's I used to correspond with an engineer who made his living designing SMPS - his amp building went from push pull with $$ PP output transformers to preference for SET pretty fast - and he wasn't using horn loading. I'm a fan of FLH - at least to the midbass area - and Karlson stuff. (I do use common class D and JLH plus have AlephJ clone and Monarchy solid-scrape amps) Speaking of the "B" connected network, I'd like to set one for ~600Hz (K600) and about the same attenuation used for LS. The speaker will be nominal 16 ohm (K55V) What cap value would you Klipsch guys suggest? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glens Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 24 minutes ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said: You came back with an irreverent treatment or attitude towards me, treated me unfairly, I felt. I was referring specifically to this post on page 8, yesterday. I challenge you to point out one instance of either irreverence or unfairness within that post. Assuming you're referring to that post, do you feel I treated you unfairly by pointing out that (for a high-level crossover) the most usable of the three capacitor values you'd specified has an effective resistance to AC of 10 ohms but only drops that low at above the range of useful audio spectrum? If the tweeter were 10 ohms that would represent the crossover point (sharing the signal half each between the capacitor and driver) if used as a first-order filter. As I recall it was 23 kHz at which this occurred. Can you explain how adding such a capacitor value to a bundle can possibly improve (raise?) response in the "midbass to midrange transition"? At 1 kHz a 0.68 uF capacitor (the one in question, I just looked) exhibits a resistance to AC of roughly 250 ohms! How is adding this to the high-level crossover circuit going to improve a deficiency there? How could it even possibly do so? I'll give you some help with that. If the resistive value of the the capacitor(s) were already 8 ohms at that frequency (~20 uF), then paralleling an additional 0.68 uF capacitor would cause it to drop to 7.75 ohms at that frequency. This drops the "8 ohm" frequency of that new bundle from 1000 Hz to 967 Hz. All it's doing is lowering the crossover point (in terms of the capacitance, at any rate) 33 Hz. Okay, so doing that might cause an in increased overlap of the two drivers concerned and that might "fix" a deficiency in that audio range (if that's "mid bass to midrange"). How about a 0.068 uF cap added to the same location to address a deficiency in "the lower treble range"? (Both as you'd specified.) All that does is drop the frequency where the bundle represents "8 ohms" to 964 Hz, an "additional" 3 Hz lower. I don't know specifically what you mean by "lower treble range" but 0.068 uF exhibits a resistive value of 1 kohm at ~2500 Hz. At 5 kHz it'd be ~400 ohms. How much signal at those frequencies is getting through that capacitor to the driver to help with a deficiency? Sure, adding a parallel resistor to a series resistive element decreases the overall value of series resistance present, but that would tend to increase the voltage getting through at all frequencies where the resistance is lower, not just some select segment of the frequencies. The capacitor values you gave to cover the ranges you mentioned might be much more appropriate with the impedance levels inside an amplifier than in a high-level crossover feeding the speaker. 24 minutes ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said: My method works, sounds good. I can't say what someone's graphs and theories will sound like. So , no comments. There were neither graphs nor theories presented in that post. Mostly plain facts, plus some expressed opinion formed from the finding of those facts. I suggest you (re-?)read it. Some of the material has been re-iterated and expounded-upon in this post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 40 minutes ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said: Your use of many initials makes your posts less than understandable. If you want to communicate with others, spell it out please. Lmao. Best laugh I’ve had in awhile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlson3 Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 Jeff, acronyms "SMPS" = "Switching Mode Power Supply" "FLH" = "Front Loaded Horn" "GM" (Greg Monfort) at Diyaudio would really throw you with use of "initials". Its pretty typical for front loaded horn to be termed "FLH", rear loaded "BLH" (back loaded) with internet jargon in order to save space. David McBean's wonderful speaker simulation program's "Input Wizard" also uses "FLH" and "BLH" as choices under "horn loaded" options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 9 hours ago, Dave A said: 你比一只臭虫更疯狂 😁 Who are you, Robert Kraft? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glens Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 5 minutes ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said: After the third sentence, I stopped reading your post. I really abhor interacting with folks who talk Theory, and EE talk, all the time. I have very little faith in the sound systems of such individuals, and how they might perform. Okay, so you didn't read it. Stating that is much better than doing it yet then claiming it contained irreverence and unfairness nonetheless. Once again, though, there was no theory nor EE talk. Just plain facts. If you can't refute them, fine. If you don't want to, fine. It simply indicates to me that you can't possibly be obtaining results you claim. I'm not passing judgement on what you think you're hearing or on you personally, but it certainly appears that we mutually have little use for what each other have to say about this topic. It's been nice to have met you, and I wish you well in your endeavors. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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