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RF-7II 's And Krell S-300i Integrated


Codyred

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35 minutes ago, Shiva said:

Nothing wrong with trying to get the most out of ones speakers. The Anthem you have has very nice reviews and is supposed to be good for bass too.  Perhaps, it is a room issue.    How far from the front wall are they?  Maybe your sitting position is in a null.  Have you noticed in some parts of the room, the bass is fuller than other areas?   Have you tried playing bass heavy music such as techno dance or rap through them to test the RF7's limit?   

The RF7II are a litter more than 1ft from the wall (brick) behind them.  The bass is fuller in the powder room connected to the family room and also behind my seated position. I have not played any bass heavy music since getting the Anthem.  I have always known I have a tough room (carpet over concrete slab). I still expect more from those 10 in woofers.

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11 minutes ago, Codyred said:

I still expect more from those 10 in woofers.

When we had the RF-7I vs RF-7II vs RF-7III "shootout" at Youthman's house, believe me bass was not an issue.  We drove them all with an HK stereo receiver, HK/Acurus A200 combo, and my Yamaha A-S1000 integrated, and all combos exploited the bass each speakers had to offer.  The HK/Acurus combo was a bit stronger but none of the speakers lacked bass with any form of amplification.  Youthman's family room/kitchen,dining room combo is on the big side and all speakers still excelled down low.

 

Bill

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7 minutes ago, willland said:

When we had the RF-7I vs RF-7II vs RF-7III "shootout" at Youthman's house, believe me bass was not an issue.  We drove them all with an HK stereo receiver, HK/Acurus A200 combo, and my Yamaha A-S1000 integrated, and all combos exploited the bass each speakers had to offer.  The HK/Acurus combo was a bit stronger but none of the speakers lacked bass with any form of amplification.  Youthman's family room/kitchen,dining room combo is on the big side and all speakers still excelled down low.

 

Bill

Thanks Bill. You can always be counted on to add perspective to the SQ conversations. 

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I would try playing with placement, just for fun and experimentation.   Bring the speakers out another foot into the room and test.  Push the seating position further back, where the bass is more pronounced and test. Play around a bit and see if you can find the rooms sweet spot. Play music with driving bass lines, so changes if any, will be obvious.   

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Or some 3D thing on the ceiling over the listening spot to bust up standing waves there.

 

I don't get the notion of a "high current" amp.  It's not like the amp is pushing anything toward the load; it's only making it available for the load to pull.  If the load ain't pulling all that's available, making more available won't avail a thing.  Also, the speakers are consuming Watts (more accurately, Volt-Amps Reactive) - a product of current and voltage.

 

Now I'm curious - have to look and see what the manufacturer claims are on that gear...

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The amp needs to be able to deliver enough current at the desired SPL to cover where the frequency dips below 4 Ohms. I posted a link on page one that has a discussion on the RF-7IIs Frequency Response Curve and evidently the RF-7IIs drop slightly below the 4 Ohm threshold where as the originals were *reported* to actually have a couple of dips below 3 Ohms. Fwiw, I have found my speakers below work better with power supplies that's rated to drive 4 Ohm speakers and found that in most instruction manuals they will either confirm or warn against using either 6 or 4 Ohm speakers.

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22 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said:

The amp needs to be able to deliver enough current at the desired SPL to cover where the frequency dips below 4 Ohms.

 

This is exactly why I purchased a Krell 300i; back then I owned Martin Logan SL3's which are known to go as low as 1.5 ohms at the upper end of the frequency spectrum. It was a wonderful pairing that I miss.

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4 hours ago, mimalmo said:

 

This is exactly why I purchased a Krell 300i; back then I owned Martin Logan SL3's which are known to go as low as 1.5 ohms at the upper end of the frequency spectrum. It was a wonderful pairing that I miss.

mimalmo, that's a coincidence;   On Friday I was talking to a dealer on the phone who carries Krell and Klipsch, asking if he'd ever heard the Krell S-300i with the Klipsch RF7II's (he hadn't).  He mentioned that one of his customers had the Krell 300i (not the S-300i), and it was a great match with the Martin Logan speakers. I still wonder if the S-300i would be smooth enough in the highs for the Klipsch horn. Some say this newer Krell is smoother than previous integrateds. The one I've been considering buying has a Synergistic Research fuse, replacing the stock fuse (suppose to smooth the sound more).

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I fetched the manual for the current iteration of that Krell a bit earlier.  They say outright not to use power conditioners.  Interesting...

 

Anyway, it's been my experience that the bass that slams you in the chest is a fair bit higher in frequency than is typically sent to a sub, so adding one (I have in the past) ain't gonna bring that to the table if it ain't there already.

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2 minutes ago, glens said:

I fetched the manual for the current iteration of that Krell a bit earlier.  They say outright not to use power conditioners.  Interesting...

 

If I remember correctly, Dan felt that all the power conditioners out there were current limiting and therefore robbing his design of performance.

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5 hours ago, Codyred said:

On Friday I was talking to a dealer on the phone who carries Krell and Klipsch, asking if he'd ever heard the Krell S-300i with the Klipsch RF7II's (he hadn't). 

I don't want to talk you out of anything you want to buy, but it seems you are paying for the name and won't be using anywhere near what that amp can deliver....Heck, I can't imaging it would sound any different than the Anthem since neither is supposed to color the sound. Will the dealer let you take it home and audition it with the RF-7IIs? That is what we used to do in the old days. :) 

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On 3/15/2019 at 11:27 AM, Zen Traveler said:

Welcome to the Forum, :) Fwiw, the RF-7s were designed to be paired with a subwoofer. 

That is interesting.  Likely only for movies where you need 3 times the bass output.  If a speaker is +/- 3db from 30 -20khz then a sub should definitely not be needed for music.  

A speaker with double woofers and that low of an impedance typically will require significant current, such as a Class D (wyred4sound, bel canto icepower or large nCore amps ) and to be properly positioned in the room.

Typical problem with Klipsch speakers is that the high end is tilted up a little and also require proper placement and room treatment, which makes it hard to observe the bass that they are capable of.  

 

Go find some current and work on the room.  Subs for music are a band-aid.

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6 hours ago, pzannucci said:

That is interesting.  Likely only for movies where you need 3 times the bass output.  If a speaker is +/- 3db from 30 -20khz then a sub should definitely not be needed for music.  

A speaker with double woofers and that low of an impedance typically will require significant current, such as a Class D (wyred4sound, bel canto icepower or large nCore amps ) and to be properly positioned in the room.

Typical problem with Klipsch speakers is that the high end is tilted up a little and also require proper placement and room treatment, which makes it hard to observe the bass that they are capable of.  

 

Go find some current and work on the room.  Subs for music are a band-aid.

Yes, a high current integrated has been the goal to maximize the bass capability of the 4 woofers. I have purposely not connected my subwoofer while evaluating the Anthem 225 because the speakers alone should produce significant bass, thus I continue to consider the  Krell S-300i because it's high current. Since the RF7 II's need power and current in the region below 4 ohms, high current seems necessary. I'm considering one other integrated that is known for its bass  capability, (Vincent SV-237 mk).  

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On 3/16/2019 at 11:07 AM, Codyred said:

I have always known I have a tough room (carpet over concrete slab).

 

I'm interested to hear why you classify you room as tough by pointing out carpet over concrete.  In my experience carpet makes things very much easier.

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glens, I guess because  producing stronger bass has been a struggle in this room over several speakers and systems, and more than one person has stated in audio forums that a concrete slab makes for a tough room.  In my case, the wall behind the speakers is brick.  To add to the issue, my speakers are on a short wall rather than a long wall.  So maybe, its all these things added together.  Bottom line, others have stated that a room with a concrete slab as a floor is not good for bass. 

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But if you've got carpet (assuming wall-to-wall, and likely stretched in over pad), then you don't have a concrete slab floor anymore, acoustically.  My stuff is in the basement.  Bare (well, painted) block walls, they skimped several ways building the house, one of which was one (or two) too few courses of block, so the finished ceiling is hardly 7'.  I took up the brand new cheap-*** ("flip-house") carpet from the main floor and glued it on the floor in the basement before we moved in.  The stereo rig which also serves TV sound duty is on the end of a very long wall.  Just the right combination of lively and dead.

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So maybe my room is not the bass challenge I always thought.  The arrangement of this family room leaves no options.  Re-arrangement is likely the solution. Matching amps and speakers for optimum performance is a challenge unless  you get lucky or replicate another setup in a similar room.  

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15 hours ago, pzannucci said:
On ‎3‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 10:27 AM, Zen Traveler said:

Welcome to the Forum, :) Fwiw, the RF-7s were designed to be paired with a subwoofer. 

That is interesting.  Likely only for movies where you need 3 times the bass output.  If a speaker is +/- 3db from 30 -20khz then a sub should definitely not be needed for music.  

A speaker with double woofers and that low of an impedance typically will require significant current, such as a Class D (wyred4sound, bel canto icepower or large nCore amps ) and to be properly positioned in the room.

Typical problem with Klipsch speakers is that the high end is tilted up a little and also require proper placement and room treatment, which makes it hard to observe the bass that they are capable of.  

 

Go find some current and work on the room.  Subs for music are a band-aid.

If you are looking for a two channel rig then maybe the RF-7IIs aren't the speakers to consider unless you want to pay more for amplification....Fwiw, I don't think your "band aid" analogy is correct when it concerns having 2-channel in a multi-channel system. Yes, if a person wants his front 2 speakers to act alone without the benefit of subs then possibly more power is needed but NOT when you cross the lower end to a sub, imo.  {EDIT: The OP definitely has enough power to drive his RF-7IIs to get their full bass potential unless I am missing something.}

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7 hours ago, Zen Traveler said:

If you are looking for a two channel rig then maybe the RF-7IIs aren't the speakers to consider unless you want to pay more for amplification....Fwiw, I don't think your "band aid" analogy is correct when it concerns having 2-channel in a multi-channel system. Yes, if a person wants his front 2 speakers to act alone without the benefit of subs then possibly more power is needed but NOT when you cross the lower end to a sub, imo.  {EDIT: The OP definitely has enough power to drive his RF-7IIs to get their full bass potential unless I am missing something.}

As I said, it is a band-aid unless something else is wrong.  If you have a speaker that is spec'd to 30hz, that is lower than most music and they will likely have usable extension to 25hz.  Now if you like exaggerated bass then yes, subs are required.  

 

Now I will agree that if subs were used, since it is a two way speaker,not a nice 3 way with a very low crossover, it may help clean up the midrange a little.  That isn't the problem here.  The other area is if the room has a lot of nulls or terrible in other way and / or positioning is not good, the use of subs can allow you to move the subs to an area in the room that can produce better bass while maintaining the position of the speakers for good imaging or as the lifestyle requires.

 

This is just likely a room / speaker fr balance issue.  Drop down the horn 2db and I bet they would sound much better in that room.  There is something to be said about l-pads for instances like this.

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