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scott0527

Backs on Klipschorns?

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5 minutes ago, glens said:

 

No offence intended, but I'm having a little trouble understanding that.  How much different is it than the LaScala behind the doghouse?

I don't understand your question....are you talking about the cabinet depth difference?  or the production cost difference? ….or the mid-horn lens length difference?....or the re-design of the bass bin to allow for the shorter depth of the cabinet?  Or the assembly time differences?

 

The LaScala foot print is basically a SQUARE...in order to achieve the "golden mean" aesthetics, the Belle cabinet was required to be a rectangle....long dimension in front and rear long dimension against rear wall...for this reason the bass horn lens had to be less depth and wider...so the LaScala bass bin design was modified to achieve this!...it is shallower but wider....due the K400 mid horn lens being so LONG, a compromise had to be made to replace it with a shorter horn lens so that the new mid-horn lens WITH its compression driver attached would NOT extend rearward out of the cabinet...at the two decision matrixes involving the Bass Horn re-design, AND the shorter mid-horn lens...the identical voicing of the K-horn was compromised somewhat compared to what the LaScala design had been.....So, because PWK's thought process for the Belle centered around BEAUTY...including the "golden mean" application, the identical voicing compromise was acceptable...but had to have allowances made in the PASSIVE crossover...to APPROACH the LaScala performance as a center channel...so now you have a mid-horn lens not used in any other speaker in the production line-up...and due to the small numbers required for Belle production, the cost is much higher per unit purchased!  The changes to the crossover network also required a network that would ONLY be usable in a low-production speaker...the Belle!   So, for the sake of extreme beauty, the entire speaker was a compromise, except for its tweeter and woofer...all of this for BEAUTY...as a living room center channel speaker between two K-horns!!  YA GOTTA MAKE THE WIFE HAPPY!!!!...so you get as CLOSE AS POSSIBLE to the voicing of the UGLY AS HELL LaScala in the LIVING ROOM...just to please her!  This is what happens when the HIGH WAF takes precedence over performance!...BUT AT LEAST the Belle was not so IN YOUR FACE as a center channel when listening from the "sweet spot"!  Make sense?

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All of that makes sense, but you'd said construction time equaled 6 Khorn bins.  I merely wanted to know how much more complicated the (hidden) area behind the doghouse is than for the LaScala as a point of reference.  I could see construction time being perhaps a bit more than for a LaScala, but nowhere near that of even a single Khorn.

 

Unless you're saying the increased cost of the low-volume single-use parts equaled the cost of constructing 6 Khorn bins, not that the construction itself did.  That might make more sense, but isn't the message I got from your other post.

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1 hour ago, glens said:

All of that makes sense, but you'd said construction time equaled 6 Khorn bins.  I merely wanted to know how much more complicated the (hidden) area behind the doghouse is than for the LaScala as a point of reference.  I could see construction time being perhaps a bit more than for a LaScala, but nowhere near that of even a single Khorn.

 

Unless you're saying the increased cost of the low-volume single-use parts equaled the cost of constructing 6 Khorn bins, not that the construction itself did.  That might make more sense, but isn't the message I got from your other post.

LOOK CLOSELY AT A BELLE!  It is assembled without any main cabinet miter joints...all butt joints...all panels used have fine veneer edge-banding on them...it uses an ungawdly amount of SCREW fasteners...the pilot holes for all of this including blocks (some GLUE some NOT GLUE...some glue on one side and not glued on the other) have to be VERY PRECISELY aligned during assembly...there is absolutely NO MARGIN FOR ERROR!!  Metal "L" brackets are used, too...and must be HIDDEN...which was part of the design to begin with....the list goes on and on...as to WHY it took so many man-hours to assemble!!  Of all the production designs it is the VERY LEAST able to be rapidly be built!  PERIOD!  TRUST ME!  I worked right by the Belle section...and the builder or builders were responsible for ONE box each...if it was a pair...one builder had to build BOTH of them!  Belle builders were the most stressed-out of all the builders!!  BUT they were also the MOST RESPECTED!!  Everybody learned HOW to build them, but almost NOBODY wanted to be a "regular builder" of them!  Belle builders were selected for a number of reasons:  ability to pay SERIOUS attention to detail; NON-DRINKERS ( a hung-over builder could not do it!);  having an "eye" to figure out how to solve a problem before it multiplied itself further along in the build; etc....etc....  All it took was ONE un-fixable problem to turn what was SUPPOSED to be a matched pair into a pair of SINGLES...one shot with black!  The finely-veneered panels had to be PERFECT in every way, to include having absolutely NO VOIDS in the poplar lumber-core, or immediately under the fine veneer.  You couldn't even use pneumatic screw guns...had to use hand screw drivers and a "yankee" screw-driver so you could FEEL the torque when assembling and NOT strip out any wood holding the screws!  LONG BAR CLAMPS WERE A NECESSITY!! to ensure everything was already precisely aligned and TIGHT before using the screws...you absolutely COULD NOT use the threads of the screws to PULL THINGS DOWN!...the list goes on and on!  The entire cabinet had to FIRST be built, and THEN partially dis-assembled FOR SANDING AND FOR APPLYING THE FINISH...then it was RE-ASSEMBLED...not quite all the way..for installation of stuff in final assembly...and testing...then it was shipped in two sections...or as an entire unit!!  Things changed while I was working there on the shipping mode!  Of all the speakers built it had the least use of staples involved and the highest use of screws!!!  NO FINISHING NAILS WHATSOEVER!

 

Back when I worked there, a good K-horn bass bin builder could knock out about two a day max...if everything went together right...mostly because of so many sub-assemblies that were already waiting to be used.  A Belle builder normally took three days to complete ONE cabinet...sometimes longer if there were unanticipated issues involved...up to FOUR days!!  Make sense?

 

Even when the foreman would leave the cabinet shop for the "honcho meeting" with the plant manager...and many of the builders would don their safety glasses in preparation for the short nail gun war....LOL!....the Belle builder would be left out...and continue working...because HE KNEW he would NOT become a target...all it took was ONE dent in the wrong place on a Belle being built and whomever CAUSED that dent would get FIRED!  SO, as the foreman returned, his eyes would be on the floor around the Bell Builder(s) and if he saw ONE finishing nail or 1-1/8th inch staple there would be HELL TO PAY!!  He did not really CARE about all the nails and staples on the floor around everybody else's building stations and tended to let it slide...but the BELLE station had better be EXPENDED-AMMO-FREE!😉

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22 hours ago, YK Thom said:

The Belle is IMO the most beautiful of all the Heritage speakers, rivalled only by the modern Palladium series which were magnificent looking. The return of the Forte seems to be successful and was a very good idea. Bringing back a modern Belle would be icing on the cake. They have a look that works with the decor of many homes, nailing down the all important WAF that helps drive sales.

If they came back with a new version of the belles i would probably  one of the first buyers

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On 4/20/2019 at 12:12 PM, dwilawyer said:

Go to :45 into the video and @Chief bonehead Roy talks about the background on enclosing the backs.

 

 

Noce chunk of video

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23 hours ago, jimjimbo said:

Personally , I think Klipsch has made a very good decision to hold off on the reintroduction of the Belle (if it ever really does happen...)  I can't imagine anything but minor cosmetic change, but perhaps a tweaking of the drivers and crossover would be in order.  I have a feeling that @Chief boneheadhas already given this at least some passing thought......

If they can do to the belles what they did to the khorns hell yea (however my opinion comes from '78 speakers to 70th anniversary)so why not? I'm thinking there's a whole new  generation out there that would buy-not including us old farts

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5 hours ago, HDBRbuilder said:

LOOK CLOSELY AT A BELLE!  It is assembled without any main cabinet miter joints...all butt joints...all panels used have fine veneer edge-banding on them...it uses an ungawdly amount of SCREW fasteners...the pilot holes for all of this including blocks (some GLUE some NOT GLUE...some glue on one side and not glued on the other) have to be VERY PRECISELY aligned during assembly...there is absolutely NO MARGIN FOR ERROR!!  Metal "L" brackets are used, too...and must be HIDDEN...which was part of the design to begin with....the list goes on and on...as to WHY it took so many man-hours to assemble!!  Of all the production designs it is the VERY LEAST able to be rapidly be built!  PERIOD!  TRUST ME!  I worked right by the Belle section...and the builder or builders were responsible for ONE box each...if it was a pair...one builder had to build BOTH of them!  Belle builders were the most stressed-out of all the builders!!  BUT they were also the MOST RESPECTED!!  Everybody learned HOW to build them, but almost NOBODY wanted to be a "regular builder" of them!  Belle builders were selected for a number of reasons:  ability to pay SERIOUS attention to detail; NON-DRINKERS ( a hung-over builder could not do it!);  having an "eye" to figure out how to solve a problem before it multiplied itself further along in the build; etc....etc....  All it took was ONE un-fixable problem to turn what was SUPPOSED to be a matched pair into a pair of SINGLES...one shot with black!  The finely-veneered panels had to be PERFECT in every way, to include having absolutely NO VOIDS in the poplar lumber-core, or immediately under the fine veneer.  You couldn't even use pneumatic screw guns...had to use hand screw drivers and a "yankee" screw-driver so you could FEEL the torque when assembling and NOT strip out any wood holding the screws!  LONG BAR CLAMPS WERE A NECESSITY!! to ensure everything was already precisely aligned and TIGHT before using the screws...you absolutely COULD NOT use the threads of the screws to PULL THINGS DOWN!...the list goes on and on!  The entire cabinet had to FIRST be built, and THEN partially dis-assembled FOR SANDING AND FOR APPLYING THE FINISH...then it was RE-ASSEMBLED...not quite all the way..for installation of stuff in final assembly...and testing...then it was shipped in two sections...or as an entire unit!!  Things changed while I was working there on the shipping mode!  Of all the speakers built it had the least use of staples involved and the highest use of screws!!!  NO FINISHING NAILS WHATSOEVER!

 

Back when I worked there, a good K-horn bass bin builder could knock out about two a day max...if everything went together right...mostly because of so many sub-assemblies that were already waiting to be used.  A Belle builder normally took three days to complete ONE cabinet...sometimes longer if there were unanticipated issues involved...up to FOUR days!!  Make sense?

 

Even when the foreman would leave the cabinet shop for the "honcho meeting" with the plant manager...and many of the builders would don their safety glasses in preparation for the short nail gun war....LOL!....the Belle builder would be left out...and continue working...because HE KNEW he would NOT become a target...all it took was ONE dent in the wrong place on a Belle being built and whomever CAUSED that dent would get FIRED!  SO, as the foreman returned, his eyes would be on the floor around the Bell Builder(s) and if he saw ONE finishing nail or 1-1/8th inch staple there would be HELL TO PAY!!  He did not really CARE about all the nails and staples on the floor around everybody else's building stations and tended to let it slide...but the BELLE station had better be EXPENDED-AMMO-FREE!😉

Boy that brings back memories. I had a cabinet shop for several years and to blow off steam we'd have a grillout and a nialgun fight- this was way before paintguns. 

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1 hour ago, Yuper said:

rBoy that brings back memories. I had a cabinet shop for several years and to blow off steam we'd have a grillout and a nialgun fight- this was way before paintguns. 

We had to modify our Senco nail guns....had to remove the safeties...lightly grind off the sharp edges in the tips, then buff them smooth as hell...so dragging them across the wood left no scratches….take out the hammer/striker....grind off the "T" shape on the tip to just a roundish end so that it was a round hole that needed filling...but in order to get the guns to function without the safety mounted, we had to take a piece of a pencil and put it into where the safety cross-piece release part was...just above the trigger and if you modded it just right...then whenever the nail gun fights began you just squeezed the trigger harder and an entire strip fired off full-auto!  Too funny!  You just walked the full-auto spray right onto the target!!...reloaded and did it again!  We always kept guns with safeties still on them handy under our work-tables for the "OSHA IS HERE" days, though!

 

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Yuper congrats on the 70s! Welcome to the club lol.

 

Yeah even though it is super efficient and could work on 2-4W if you listen to low to medium levels. For anything higher or very dynamic it would definitely bottleneck the KHorn and prevent it from doing its thing. I personally wouldn't feed the 70s anything less than 40-50W. I actually think 80W-200W is probably ideal to have plenty of headroom for dynamics and feeding that big 15" woofer. I'm not surprised you greatly preferred it at 200W.

 

I also think the bass is better, deeper and tighter with solid state as well. My 70s are about a year old now as far as usage since opening the boxes and use them about 2-4 hours everyday, whether it be watching TV, watching a movie or listening to music. They were great when I first got them, but now over a year later they have really settled in and are pretty much fully broken in, the sound they can put out is just so good. Sometimes I think to myself how could everyone NOT love the Klipsch heritage line. When I listen to other high end big box cone speakers, panels or estats they just don't do it for me like these horns do.

 

If your room setup can handle it, depending on the size, setup etc. I highly recommend a matching 70th Heresy or La Scala as a center channel! As well as 1 or 2 subs in corners around the room, (I use REL T9is) via high level crossed over just at ever so slightly above where the KHorns 15" drops off. I use 39hz. End result is the bass sounds likes it coming from the KHorns down to 28-30hz, and for hard hitting movies you get all the nice effects.

 

The dealer I bought my 70th KHorns from is offering a pair of 70th La Scalas for a killer price eBay right now. I wasn't able to make a La Scala center work in my room but I was damn lucky to recently get a pair of unopened 70th Heresy's from a guy in Europe to complete my system. Took me a few months of hunting to find a pair.

 

It was great in 2ch. But with a center channel in between like PWK had in mind, it takes it to a whole different level. I originally used a Marantz MA500 monoblock as my center ch amp, but I recently got a Crown XLS1002, the lowest powered one they have. Run the center Heresy from the XLS biamped, with a pair of pro grade LiveWire Elite 12gauge Speakon to Banana cables. I set the Low Pass to the same spec as the passive crossover the Hersey III uses, 850hz as that didn't need changing. And the volume knob at about 60% on the Crown. Blends in beautifully with the MA5200 100W powered L/R KHorns. You can't really tell the center is on until you turn it off. Then you notice it right away and want to put it back on right away. Just makes the center image much more stable and slightly enlarges the sweetspot. Helps a ton with making central stage on screen sounds seem like its coming from TV screen like at the movie theater. In music it really completes the triangle of bass down to 50hz or so. The fact the Heresy goes up to 20khz helps out to extend the 17khz of the KHorns tweeter by just a little bit.

 

I'm using a Carver H9 with all the buttons off, so in full passive mode as the center ch source. It has a mono Center Channel and Mono Rear channel output. I put the other Heresy in the center rear about 6-7ft behind where I listen fed by the L-R Surround output of the Carver. I only turn that on for Movies or ambient music. Does a great job with 5.1 and old school 4ch Dolby Surround movies, it's very subtle but you notice it's there particularly on fly by type effects or ambient out of phase background effects.

 

Curious what 200W amp did you settle on for your 70s?

Edited by sixspeed

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