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Chorus II Too Big?


Frank Booth

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5 minutes ago, willland said:

Sealed cabinet. 

 

Acoustic Suspension Loudspeakers

I guess that would make sense. But is it a partial acoustic suspension speaker related to the woofer? As the tweeter and midrange are horns and not effected by the sealed box? But then I guess the tweeters in an Acoustic Research aren't affected by the sealed box.

 

Thanks Bill.

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27 minutes ago, Frank Booth said:

These are bone stock from the late 1980's, bought from original owner, said he never did any upgrades

 

Interesting, are you saying Heresy's are considered acoustic suspension? I know they aren't ported but also didn't believe they were "acoustic suspension."

 

 

 

Yes, Heresies are acoustic suspension.  No magic really and it only affects the low bass, so the "sound" of a speaker is not much determined by the cabinet design.  The (in)famous acoustic suspension Larger Advent was tuned to accentuate the low bass region and may be responsible for your and many other's impression of what acoustic suspension sounds like.  From the low E on a guitar up, the acoustic suspension has little, if any, effect.  Even lower for some speakers. 

 

An 8 x 12 x 16 (1:1.5:2) room is gonna be tough.  It will boom from 140 to 280 Hz.  Do you have another room for listening? 

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Frank, it's not your MX110/MC30 gear, it's the combination of those with Chorus II (in my opinion).  First of all I felt that higher powered solid state sounded better at higher volumes with the Chorus II.  They just beg to be pushed.  I have that same amp/preamp gear and I have had three separate pairs of Chorus II's, which in one way or another I updated drivers, crossovers, etc.  I just could not get any of those pairs to work in my room, and I also have some pretty good acoustic treatment.  I could not get the image out of my head that the speakers were playing while covered in a heavy wool blanket....Many folks love them, so don't feel bad if they don't work for you, they are easily resold....

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JohnA and jimjimbo, wish I had heard from you guys earlier!

 

6 hours ago, JohnA said:

An 8 x 12 x 16 (1:1.5:2) room is gonna be tough.  It will boom from 140 to 280 Hz.  Do you have another room for listening?

Its the only room I have for audio.

 

5 hours ago, jimjimbo said:

I felt that higher powered solid state sounded better at higher volumes

I have some big ss amps I can try.

 

I'll make the upgrades and try them out, then maybe list them for sale.

 

Thanks for the help guys.

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1 hour ago, Frank Booth said:

I'll make the upgrades and try them out, then maybe list them for sale.

 

Thanks for the help guys.

I'd go with Crites drop in replacement crossovers it made a notable difference over just replacing the caps to me, problem with the Chorus 1's I believe the stock crossovers are soldered to the input cup connections making it a little more difficult to swap them out. 

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7 hours ago, jimjimbo said:

I have that same amp/preamp gear

jimjimbo, what speakers did you find that worked well with your MX110/MC30s? I'm just curious of your experience. I've had a lot of different ones, some good / some not as good and little experience with Klipsch.

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On 3/23/2019 at 8:13 PM, Frank Booth said:

Just learned an important fact. They are in fact Chorus I. Significant?

 

 

I've thought of the Cornwall IIIs but physically I think they would be too big with all the other stuff going on. (If I spend that kind of money I might rather go for Altec Lansing options.) Plus do they really need to be pushed into the corner against the wall? I have vents in the corners and don't want to cover them.

 Chorus I's are my favorites over Fortes and Cornwalls and Chorus II's. I like the sound and the front ports which free you from being corner dependent. The other thing is they respond remarkably well to improvements.

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Thinking of the OP not being impressed and remembering my experience in the last two weeks. Bought a set of Chorus I's and they were pretty flat and disappointing. I know better though and recapped and did the tweeter upgrade and it turns into a stellar system. For some reason those crossovers had really gone sour over time more so than most.

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14 hours ago, jjptkd said:

I'd go with Crites drop in replacement crossovers it made a notable difference over just replacing the caps to me, problem with the Chorus 1's I believe the stock crossovers are soldered to the input cup connections making it a little more difficult to swap them out. 

 

curious why the drop in x-overs would sound any different/better than replacing just caps?  aren't the caps 99% of the sound in an x-over? if nothing was defective in the original x-overs, the drop ins should not sound any better than replacing caps on the stock x-overs. 

 

12 hours ago, Dave A said:

 Chorus I's are my favorites over Fortes and Cornwalls and Chorus II's. I like the sound and the front ports which free you from being corner dependent. The other thing is they respond remarkably well to improvements.

 

curious why you like the chorus better than the ch2?  aside from the front ports on the chorus, the ch2 go lower & majority of people feel the tractrix mid horn is superior to the chorus mid horn.  when placed properly the chorus 2 is better on paper & in design.  & wouldn't they both respond equally well to improvements?

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, EpicKlipschFan said:

 

curious why the drop in x-overs would sound any different/better than replacing just caps?  aren't the caps 99% of the sound in an x-over? if nothing was defective in the original x-overs, the drop ins should not sound any better than replacing caps on the stock x-overs. 

 

 

curious why you like the chorus better than the ch2?  aside from the front ports on the chorus, the ch2 go lower & majority of people feel the tractrix mid horn is superior to the chorus mid horn.  when placed properly the chorus 2 is better on paper & in design.  & wouldn't they both respond equally well to improvements?

 

 

 

 

I like the chorus I because they can be played anywhere and sound the same. The Chorus II and Fortes have to be in a corner to work best and in my shop I have no corners to use in my listening area. Yes I imagine the II's would respond just as well to improvements.  In my experience with Chorus I's and II's the biggest problem is the stock tweeter so even if the mid range in the II is better the weak link is still there. Specs read on Chorus I 42hz and -10bd at 36hz and the II's are 39hz +-3db so not a huge difference and I think the definition in the I's is a bit better too which is a subjective thing. Both are great speakers though.

 

  What I see at a decent price, or at least cheaper, are the Chorus I's over the II's so that is another reason for me added to my reasons above.DSC_0004.thumb.JPG.b7cc11ee8e827b5349744268e50f1593.JPG.

 

  Recapping those is not a problem and if you are decent with a soldering iron and careful you are good to go. I would not put an electrolytic in there on the woofer circuit either and would use something like that Audyn you see. It made the bass in that Chorus I wake up and I am doing this to everyone I get from now on.

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1 hour ago, Dave A said:

I like the chorus I because they can be played anywhere and sound the same. The Chorus II and Fortes have to be in a corner to work best and in my shop I have no corners to use in my listening area. Yes I imagine the II's would respond just as well to improvements.  In my experience with Chorus I's and II's the biggest problem is the stock tweeter so even if the mid range in the II is better the weak link is still there. Specs read on Chorus I 42hz and -10bd at 36hz and the II's are 39hz +-3db so not a huge difference and I think the definition in the I's is a bit better too which is a subjective thing. Both are great speakers though.

 

  What I see at a decent price, or at least cheaper, are the Chorus I's over the II's so that is another reason for me added to my reasons above.DSC_0004.thumb.JPG.b7cc11ee8e827b5349744268e50f1593.JPG.

 

  Recapping those is not a problem and if you are decent with a soldering iron and careful you are good to go. I would not put an electrolytic in there on the woofer circuit either and would use something like that Audyn you see. It made the bass in that Chorus I wake up and I am doing this to everyone I get from now on.

 

thanks for the explanation. 

 

what makes the bass better by not using an electrolytic cap in the woofer circuit?  i always thought & was told by x-over gurus that the woofer circuit is just a dump & the cap type wont affect the sound.  & using a poly cap that large in value is rather expensive for a questionable improvement in sound.... & can be difficult to place on most stock x-over boards.   

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2 hours ago, EpicKlipschFan said:

 

thanks for the explanation. 

 

what makes the bass better by not using an electrolytic cap in the woofer circuit?  i always thought & was told by x-over gurus that the woofer circuit is just a dump & the cap type wont affect the sound.  & using a poly cap that large in value is rather expensive for a questionable improvement in sound.... & can be difficult to place on most stock x-over boards.   

Look I have heard the same thing and the garbage can analogy too from people whose opinions I respect in almost every other thing we communicate about. What really got me thinking about this was pro gear where the tiny electrolytics were swelled up and sure enough when measured were really bad. Then I got a KP-450 with Klipsch OEM crossovers in them. Basically the same as the ones for the KPT-456. They were split into two crossovers. One was an LF in the bass bin that had a big old 50uf poly cap from Klipsch. The other was the HF side on the horn cabinet. So my thinking goes that Klipsch decided these were more durable than electrolytics and they would have stayed with electrolytics if they did not cause problems. They are kind of cheapskates when it comes to crossovers and I have no doubt electrolytics would have been used initially. Another reason is I happen to like the definition of lower notes to be as good as higher notes and I fail to see why one is a garbage can and the other higher frequencies are not. So I tried an experiment a couple of speakers ago on Fortes and Chorus including one I have in the shop now with better poly caps on the woofer side of things. Better specs tighter tolerances and less ESR, you know all those things we are supposed to want in stead of the electrolytics. Price on the 68uf poly Audyn was just over $17 and for the electrolytic $1.01. Considering what many spend on caps $17 is cheap.

 Now having test speakers side by side I can say the better poly cap sounds better than the electrolytic and one of the justifications used for Sonicaps is they consistently measure to tighter tolerances and so you can expect more life and consistent performance out of them. OK if true there why not true with better tolerances in the woofer circuit? Matters in one and not the other?  I am not an engineer nor do I make money building crossovers for the public and I see so many differing opinions as to what is best practice and arguments that at times I just grow weary of it. So I look for what seems to work here for me where I can control the variables with the caveat that I do not ever intend to go for those High dollar caps. Sonicaps are rich enough for my blood and seem to work a bit better than Daytons and for vintage Klipsch come in the exact values I need.

  At some point in time you are going to have to figure out who to buy from if you can't DIY. If you can DIY then you can try things out and see for yourself.

 Those poly caps are larger so what. I have never had trouble getting them in there and they are worth it in my experience.

  By the way on that KP-450? The 50uf poly cap was in spec and ALL the mylars were not. I expect if there would have been an electrolytic in there it would have been bad too.

 

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In terms of size, the general consensus on this forum is "if they can fit through the door, they're not too big".  Also, "the bigger, the better".  In my 18'x19' living room, I have two 402 JubScala IIs, a pair of La Scala "Is", two Belles (one in front centre, one stored in a corner), two Heresy IIs (replaced by the La Scalas for surround duty, so they're disconnected, but serve as sound diffusers), and a Heresy III in rear centre position.

 

This leaves enough room for a sofa and large armchair, plus plenty of floor space to move around in.  The system sounds great, and the black speakers (the La Scalas and the Heresys) in the back of the room go almost unnoticed behind the furniture.

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1 hour ago, Dave A said:

OK if true there why not true with better tolerances in the woofer circuit? Matters in one and not the other? 

 

I think the rationale why electrolytics are considered tolerable in L.P. is that the signal isn't going through them to the driver, if that's what you were questioning...  As to another point I understood you to've made, I agree, use the best you can everywhere.

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I eliminated toe-in, have then sitting square to the room and this has helped. I turned up treble and that has helped. Hooked up a McIntosh MC754 and it is obvious these Chorus prefer more power. Even though they have that heritage look, being designed in the 1980s, an era of big SS amps I assume thats their preference. 

 

I will upgrade the tweeters and caps or crossovers as many people recommend.

 

But is there an advantage to upgrading the midrange diaphragms with what Crites sells?

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On 3/27/2019 at 6:21 PM, glens said:

 

I think the rationale why electrolytics are considered tolerable in L.P. is that the signal isn't going through them to the driver, if that's what you were questioning...  As to another point I understood you to've made, I agree, use the best you can everywhere.

 

yes thats the rationale i was speaking of, was told that the woofer cap does not work the same as the mid/hi caps & does not effect the sound or at least not enough to notice.

 

but i can understand the pro series using a better cap for the woofer as it may last longer & hold up to the continuous higher power they may see compared to standard residential models. 

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12 hours ago, Frank Booth said:

I eliminated toe-in, have then sitting square to the room and this has helped. I turned up treble and that has helped. Hooked up a McIntosh MC754 and it is obvious these Chorus prefer more power. Even though they have that heritage look, being designed in the 1980s, an era of big SS amps I assume thats their preference. 

 

I will upgrade the tweeters and caps or crossovers as many people recommend.

 

But is there an advantage to upgrading the midrange diaphragms with what Crites sells?

 

based on his explanation, the replacement mid diaphram is not an upgrade, just an equal replacement if yours is damaged.  

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