Large room speaker advice

[ajbarickman]

10 hours ago, garyrc said:

I don't have experience with the speakers you list, but I'm guessing you want something that can move more air than those.

 

La Scala II has the reputation of having better bass than La Scala I, possibly because of the thicker wood used, which provides some damping of resonance.  At times La Scala has sounded harsh to me, and fine at others.  While both the I & II have clean, tight bass, the bass rolls off below about 60 Hz.  The Klipschorn goes to 35 Hz (usable -- to use JBL's term -- to about 25 Hz, but very, very rolled off down there).   The Jubilee is somewhat better, although the specs may not show it.   IMO, both are better balanced than La Scala I or, probably, II.

 

Almost all speakers will have more bass when against a wall, and even more in a corner.  Even the new Klipschorns need to be within a few inches of a corner, but, thanks to enclosed backs, they can be toed-in, unlike the older models.  The Jubilee, also, should be near a corner.  It's a matter of bass, which you will want for your impact and dynamics!

 

Ideally, should you win the lottery, a horn subwoofer should be added to any of these, crossed over at 40, 50, or 60Hz.  DIY ones aren't too expensive. The Klipschorn and Jubilee don't need it for music, but do for the ideal home theater.  Google horn subwoofers.  They need to be big to go down low.  Their strong point is clean bass.  IMO, a regular subwoofer, that isn't a horn, will sound a little muddier, as does my RSW 15.  I should have buried a DIY horn in the basement, and let it speak out of a grille in the wall or floor.  My Klipschorns have a much tighter, snappier attack.  I really considered the subterranean horn woofer.  Here is what one guy did, in his basement:

 

 

Thanks for the info! Damn now that dude is fully committed. Crazy.  I have posted some pictures of my room. I am not sure I actually have enough room for K-horns.  

 

6 hours ago, Dave A said:

You can find local users and go listen before you buy anything and know what you like best which is better than us telling you what we like best. See what fits your room and your budget first and then buy. I don't see room size in feet so large in your eyes may differ from mine. Define your space. The better pro gear is awesome WAY beyond vintage if you can handle it. Large room speakers to some of us means an old set of MCM 1900's which cant be beat. You have to hear a set to believe it. I see KPT-942's and KPT-904's pop up out there on occasion and those are also spectacular. La Scalas make at the very least great starter speakers that many stay with for a lifetime and you can't go wrong with a set of those. With vintage gear if you don't like it over time you generally can get most or even more than what you spent back out to spend towards something different.

 

  8" woofers in anything would not satisfy me. Don't make the mistake of creeping up the speaker food chain when you can go listen first and buy big enough to begin with this time.

 

Yes, large is relative.  I have attached some pictures.  It's not so much a giant room width and height wise but just a lot of volume and connects to the kitchen as well as up the stairs. 

 

 

Unfortunately, I don't have a dealer in town that I have been able to hear them.  I agree that hearing them is the way to go.  Magnolia nor Frey's has them set up in their listening rooms and then there is a high-end dealer but they only do Heritage.  

 

4 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:

To be honest,  you are starting from a bad place with vaulted ceilings and an open floor plan. Not ideal for good sound. Can it be done? Sure. But all other things being equal, an enclosed room with 8-10 ft. ceilings will return better sound.

 

That said, if you have two good corners, there is no reason not to go with a klipschorn. Or as mentioned above, at least a Lascala and sub(s).

 

Another suggestion is to dump that AVR as a preamp and get something better. A good preamp can make a huge improvement.

 

Shakey

 

I learned this lesson in car audio.  In my last house, I had a moderate size bedroom with good shape and dimensions and it sounded incredible.  Large space is relative. I don't think I have room for K-horns. 

 

4 hours ago, mr clean said:

Rp280F can still be found at great prices and  love mine. Listening to mine right now.

 

I have been looking for some of those used. So far no luck. 

 

3 hours ago, Ceptorman said:

The RF-7 series is a pretty good step up from the RP-8000f, and the 820f is a step back from the 8000f. The RF7-ll is a little more refined than the RF7-1, it has slightly better high end. Just curious, is $1200 the budget you're wanting to keep it within?

 

Thanks for the info.  In what ways is the 820 a step back?  Refinement? Output?  I could stretch to $1200. 

Edited March 29, 2019 by ajbarickman

[willland]

1 minute ago, ajbarickman said:

 

 

 

Thanks for the info.  In what ways is the 820 a step back?  Refinement? Output?  I could stretch to $1200. 

The 820F is the Best Buy, big box store version of Klipsch Reference.  I am sure they have evolved some for the better from the Synergy/Icon series but definitely not as refined and built as well as Reference Premiere.

 

Bill

[wvu80]

12 hours ago, ajbarickman said:

Here are the La Scala's that I saw.  https://sacramento.craigslist.org/ele/d/meadow-vista-klipsch-la-scala/6851198913.html  Thoughts on them? What do I need to ask/know/understand about them? The cabinets look good in these pictures. Well, I should say in good shape.  I am not a fan of the old plywood look. 

 

Do La Scalas need to be set out off the wall or with the folder horn is that not that important?

 

I sold my 1978 LS in the exact same shape for $1400.  FYI Klipsch tends to sell even higher in CA than in other areas of the country in the neighborhood of 20% higher. 

 

If you procrastinate those LS will be gone, fast!  Ask me how I know. 

 

You do not need to put these speakers in a corner.  The corner horns are Klipschorns, or Khorns.  The LS will fill your large area better than anything else you will find.

[HPower]

What I would do...

 

I liked my idea so much, I posted it twice.  😎

 

 

 

 

[HPower]

What I would do...

 

 

 

Right after I ran out and put the $1200 down for these...

 

 

 

[ajbarickman]

1 minute ago, HPower said:

What I would do...

 

 

LOL. That's awesome

[glens]

Yep, in a heartbeat, if it ain't too late already!  That's the best solution so far discussed in this thread.

[Dave A]

4 hours ago, ajbarickman said:

Unfortunately, I don't have a dealer in town that I have been able to hear them.  I agree that hearing them is the way to go.  Magnolia nor Frey's has them set up in their listening rooms and then there is a high-end dealer but they only do Heritage.

My suggestion would be to seek owners through this forum or another one perhaps Audiogon.

[ajbarickman]

1 hour ago, glens said:

Yep, in a heartbeat, if it ain't too late already!  That's the best solution so far discussed in this thread.

 

I did reach out to the owner of the add for the La Scalas.  We shall see. 

 

54 minutes ago, Dave A said:

My suggestion would be to seek owners through this forum or another one perhaps Audiogon.

That would be awesome.  Does anybody know anyone in the Sacramento area willing to welcome me? 

[wvu80]

2 hours ago, ajbarickman said:

I did reach out to the owner of the add for the La Scalas.  We shall see.  

You are actually in a unique position to take advantage of the wisdom and experience of the Klipsch collective.

 

Most beginning speaker buyers purchase speakers on (low) price alone, then don't like the sound and get the next step up, eventually going to the mid-tier offering.  Those get sold and the Buyer has to sell the old stuff to buy the speakers he wanted in the first place, but just didn't know it.  It's expensive to buy/sell speakers.

 

You can skip the learning curve and go directly to the head of the class if you trust what others here ^^^ are saying.

 

My opinion from a financial perspective having carefully watched Heritage prices for a few years now that the LS for $1200 is a really good price for CA.  At the very least if you don't like the speakers you can sell them for what you have in them, and probably even make a little profit to fund whatever it is you think would be better for your listening room.

 

Good luck with whatever you decide. 

[Dave A]

3 hours ago, ajbarickman said:

 

I did reach out to the owner of the add for the La Scalas.  We shall see. 

 

That would be awesome.  Does anybody know anyone in the Sacramento area willing to welcome me? 

Start a new thread asking for Klipsch owners to let you hear their setup and if you don't get immediate results bump the thread every week or so until you do.

[WillyBob]

the LaScalas, I have, are really, really nice. The realism is almost spooky.  If they are all similar [I have been told that mine are 'better'. I don't know as I have only heard these as LaScalas], you won't be disappointed.

 

If you are willing to make the drive... you can come listen to 'em.

[garyrc]

21 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:

To be honest,  you are starting from a bad place with vaulted ceilings and an open floor plan. Not ideal for good sound. Can it be done? Sure. But all other things being equal, an enclosed room with 8-10 ft. ceilings will return better sound.

 

 

@ajbarickman

I don't think your vaulted ceiling will cause any problems.  Most of the ones that are problematic are somewhat concave, focusing the sound (which is not desirable).  Yours doesn't appear to be, from the picture.  Non-parallel surfaces can be helpful.  The open floor plan is another story.  It may make it harder to pressurize the room with bass.  If it turns out to be a problem, post again, addressing it, and somebody will have suggestions.  If there is a counter, pass-thru, etc. dividing one area from another, making the pony wall under the counter more rigid may or may not help.  Multiple subs, placed against separate walls might help.  The following guide by my friend Mike might help: 

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES
* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

 

 

 

[ajbarickman]

17 hours ago, wvu80 said:

You are actually in a unique position to take advantage of the wisdom and experience of the Klipsch collective.

 

Most beginning speaker buyers purchase speakers on (low) price alone, then don't like the sound and get the next step up, eventually going to the mid-tier offering.  Those get sold and the Buyer has to sell the old stuff to buy the speakers he wanted in the first place, but just didn't know it.  It's expensive to buy/sell speakers.

 

You can skip the learning curve and go directly to the head of the class if you trust what others here ^^^ are saying.

 

My opinion from a financial perspective having carefully watched Heritage prices for a few years now that the LS for $1200 is a really good price for CA.  At the very least if you don't like the speakers you can sell them for what you have in them, and probably even make a little profit to fund whatever it is you think would be better for your listening room.

 

Good luck with whatever you decide. 

Thank you. That helps make me feel more confident.  

16 hours ago, Dave A said:

Start a new thread asking for Klipsch owners to let you hear their setup and if you don't get immediate results bump the thread every week or so until you do.

Good idea. I may do that. 

8 hours ago, garyrc said:

 

@ajbarickman

I don't think your vaulted ceiling will cause any problems.  Most of the ones that are problematic are somewhat concave, focusing the sound (which is not desirable).  Yours doesn't appear to be, from the picture.  Non-parallel surfaces can be helpful.  The open floor plan is another story.  It may make it harder to pressurize the room with bass.  If it turns out to be a problem, post again, addressing it, and somebody will have suggestions.  If there is a counter, pass-thru, etc. dividing one area from another, making the pony wall under the counter more rigid may or may not help.  Multiple subs, placed against separate walls might help.  The following guide by my friend Mike might help: 

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES
* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

 

 

 

Good info. Thanks

 

I also found that the same guy has Cornwall’s available for $50 more than the La Scalas. They look to be in good shape also. 

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/2201582860169918/

Thoughts on the difference between the two.  To be honest I am totally uninspired by the look of the Cornwall’s but I know little about them. 

[jimjimbo]

 Forget the Cornwalls, buy the La Scalas.

[Marvel]

Cornwalls are a large ported box... the LaScalas would certainly be better in your room, and to me, have a very distinctive look.

 

Bruce

[Dave A]

5 hours ago, jimjimbo said:

 Forget the Cornwalls, buy the La Scalas.

I agree. Cornwalls have more bass but the La Scalas have everything else in far greater measure. I would RUN from that big boomy box.

[ajbarickman]

6 hours ago, jimjimbo said:

 Forget the Cornwalls, buy the La Scalas.

 

5 hours ago, Marvel said:

Cornwalls are a large ported box... the LaScalas would certainly be better in your room, and to me, have a very distinctive look.

 

Bruce

 

1 hour ago, Dave A said:

I agree. Cornwalls have more bass but the La Scalas have everything else in far greater measure. I would RUN from that big boomy box.

Good. I would have trouble getting excited looking at them. : )

[cincymat]

9 minutes ago, ajbarickman said:

 

 

Good. I would have trouble getting excited looking at them. : )

Yeah, looking at them isn’t the point anyway..

 

IT'S HOW THEY SOUND! 

 

Listen, closely, to the advice you are receiving. 

 

Best of luck.

 

Cincy

[garyrc]

Cornwalls have more bass, but the thinner La Scala bass is more precise, tighter, and less distorted.

 

Because you say you don't know much about them, I want to make sure you know that Paul W. Klipsch named them Cornwall because, unlike the Klipschorn, they could be placed in a corner or against a wall.

 

Rockers tend to like them, I'm told, because of their driving bass.  Klipsch measured the modulation distortion of the Cornwall as three times that of the Klipschorn, playing at 10 dB lower SPL!  This is thought to be because they are direct radiators instead of horns.  The La Scala is a horn, so it has lower modulation distortion (the woofer cone & mid/high diaphragms don't have to move as far to produce the same intensity of sound at a given pitch, thus produce fewer and less intense spurious side bands that were not in the original music).  I you want to go with the La Scala, I'd add an excellent subwoofer.  Even though almost all subwoofers are direct radiators, they crossover so low (e.g., 80 Hz) that their distortion producing wide excursion doesn't get into the upper bass, midrange, etc., and screw it up.  In Stereophile's modulation distortion (Doppler distortion) experiments (by Keith Howard), without a sub, even the sound of a flute was degraded. 

"The results were intriguing. Distortion of the flute was gross at 10mm peak diaphragm displacement and not in the least bit euphonic. On the contrary, Doppler made the sound as harsh as you might expect of a distortion mechanism that introduces intermodulation products. At 3.16mm peak displacement (below Fryer's suggested detectability threshold) the distortion level was obviously lower but still clearly audible; and even at 1mm it could still be heard affecting the flute's timbre and adding "edge."

Everyone who uses a two-way speaker (me included) can take heart from the fact that most music signals are less revealing of Doppler distortion than this special brew. But these findings undermine the view, widely accepted in the last two decades, that Doppler distortion in loudspeakers is not something we should trouble about. Having done the listening, I side with Moir and Klipsch more than with Fryer, Allison, and Villchur on this issue—something that may come as no surprise to anyone who has heard the effects of low-level jitter and sees where the Fryer criterion appears in fig.2.

It has often been claimed that, with a two-way speaker, there are audible benefits to using a crossover frequency below the typical 3kHz, the usual explanation being that this removes the crossover from the ear's area of greatest sensitivity. But I wonder. Perhaps this not-uncommon experience actually has much more to do with the D word. A three-way solution is potentially even better. Three-way speakers bring new design challenges, of course, in particular the need to achieve another perceptually seamless handover between drivers. But from the Doppler perspective, having a [main speaker]crossover for the bass driver at 400Hz or 500Hz is, unquestionably, better."

Read more at 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/red-shift-doppler-distortion-loudspeakers-page-3#omWdye7G676SYg0g.99

 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/red-shift-doppler-distortion-loudspeakers-page-3