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mopardave

Matching Cornscala drivers

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Think I lined up some zxpc mid horns from a member here, so now I need to pick some drivers for the Cornscala build.  I want to use the B&C DE120 tweets and was thinking B&C DE85TN mid drivers. Would these drivers be a good match to one another and to the ALK universal xover for the Cornscala?   As far as the woofers I may reuse my old k33e's or upgrade to the Eminence Kappa 15c woofers later.   Thanks

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you can find good horns and you can find good drivers but the only way you are going to know if they are going to work together is to try and see.

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7 hours ago, moray james said:

you can find good horns and you can find good drivers but the only way you are going to know if they are going to work together is to try and see.

I was hoping someone out there has already tried this combo and could say.

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1 hour ago, mopardave said:

I was hoping someone out there has already tried this combo and could say.

understood but you still have only one way of knowing for yourself. even the most reliable member can have a different set of listening criteria. 

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1 hour ago, moray james said:

understood but you still have only one way of knowing for yourself. even the most reliable member can have a different set of listening criteria. 

That's true. I was also thinking Al K could help me in that area as well. I know his universal x over is adjustable on the tweet and mid, so shouldn't be a problem I would think.

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Did you email Al K directly on his sight or call him?  Pretty sure he won't be replying on this site.

 

image.png.b30a2ecb7d3e79905b6cfe607678b4f3.png

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3 hours ago, avguytx said:

Did you email Al K directly on his sight or call him?  Pretty sure he won't be replying on this site.

 

image.png.b30a2ecb7d3e79905b6cfe607678b4f3.png

I have already spoke with him and will get my order in next month.

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I am using the B&C DE750TN, which is a very similar driver, with ZXPC horns in a two way configuration over LS bass bins.  They sound excellent, but they require EQ to be flat.  Even in a 3-way configuration, I think you would need to EQ them, depending on how much a flat frequency response matters to you.  I am using a MiniDSP to achieve this.  I'd be happy to answer any questions I can about the setup.

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4 hours ago, Tarheel TJ said:

I am using the B&C DE750TN, which is a very similar driver, with ZXPC horns in a two way configuration over LS bass bins.  They sound excellent, but they require EQ to be flat.  Even in a 3-way configuration, I think you would need to EQ them, depending on how much a flat frequency response matters to you.  I am using a MiniDSP to achieve this.  I'd be happy to answer any questions I can about the setup.

Ok thanks. I will keep that in mind.

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On 4/1/2019 at 4:17 PM, Tarheel TJ said:

I am using the B&C DE750TN, which is a very similar driver, with ZXPC horns in a two way configuration over LS bass bins.  They sound excellent, but they require EQ to be flat.  Even in a 3-way configuration, I think you would need to EQ them, depending on how much a flat frequency response matters to you.  I am using a MiniDSP to achieve this.  I'd be happy to answer any questions I can about the setup.

Spoke with Al K over the weekend.  He doesn't think the De120/DE85tn combo will be a problem with his CSW xover leading me to believe EQ won't be needed.  Crossing fingers.

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Al K's crossovers may work well (don't have any experience with them), but the "extreme slope" versions may well have good frequency response and impedance characteristics at (perhaps) the expense of phase qualities, which could be more important in the long run...

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    Only one way to find out: measure and see for yourself.  I know when I started measuring speaker response, it was a real eye opener.  Speakers that sounded really good to me measured horribly.  My main system at the time, consisting of stock LaScalas and a THT sub, didn't even come close to flat.  There were wild swings in SPL response.  Now, I still thought it sounded pretty darn good.  Certainly much better than the vast majority of systems out there.  That's why I put the little disclaimer in there of "if flat frequency response matters to you".  The fact is, most highly regarded speakers, Klipsch or otherwise, will not measure flat.  They definitely wont measure flat in-room.

   I have had a multi-amped, DSP crossover'ed and EQ'ed system for about two years now.  I am still working on tweaking the DSP settings, and probably will be for some time to come.  It is pretty close to flat now, but not perfect.

   Setting appropriate crossover points and tuning the driver levels by ear is a perfectly valid approach.  There are lots of speakers on here that use that approach and sound excellent.  Most of the legendary speakers of the past used a similar approach.  Sure, they may have been measured in the lab, but a basic passive crossover network doesn't give you many tools to flatten that response, at least compared to DSP.  

  I think you should assemble your speakers as planned and see how they sound.  If you get curious, get a measurement mic and see what they look like on an FR plot.  Just be warned, doing this is opening a can of worms.  Once you see what your FR really looks like, you will probably be compelled to do everything you can to improve it.  It is a long and often frustrating journey.  The results can be spectacular though.  Good luck!

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3 minutes ago, Tarheel TJ said:

    Only one way to find out: measure and see for yourself.  I know when I started measuring speaker response, it was a real eye opener.  Speakers that sounded really good to me measured horribly.  My main system at the time, consisting of stock LaScalas and a THT sub, didn't even come close to flat.  There were wild swings in SPL response.  Now, I still thought it sounded pretty darn good.  Certainly much better than the vast majority of systems out there.  That's why I put the little disclaimer in there of "if flat frequency response matters to you".  The fact is, most highly regarded speakers, Klipsch or otherwise, will not measure flat.  They definitely wont measure flat in-room.

   I have had a multi-amped, DSP crossover'ed and EQ'ed system for about two years now.  I am still working on tweaking the DSP settings, and probably will be for some time to come.  It is pretty close to flat now, but not perfect.

   Setting appropriate crossover points and tuning the driver levels by ear is a perfectly valid approach.  There are lots of speakers on here that use that approach and sound excellent.  Most of the legendary speakers of the past used a similar approach.  Sure, they may have been measured in the lab, but a basic passive crossover network doesn't give you many tools to flatten that response, at least compared to DSP.  

  I think you should assemble your speakers as planned and see how they sound.  If you get curious, get a measurement mic and see what they look like on an FR plot.  Just be warned, doing this is opening a can of worms.  Once you see what your FR really looks like, you will probably be compelled to do everything you can to improve it.  It is a long and often frustrating journey.  The results can be spectacular though.  Good luck!

I see.   Now that you have you response flat does it sound much difference from before?   I guess what I would like to you is what are all the benefits of a flat response curve?

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    Yes, they do sound different.  At times, shockingly so.  In fact, when you take a setup you have been listening to for a while and EQ it, it often sounds "wrong" at first.  I think this is because your ears and your brain get very used to a particular FR and learn to compensate for it.  After listening to the EQ'ed setup for a while, you can switch back to the previous setup and now IT will sound wrong.  Over time, your system and your ears begin to zero in on a flatter frequency response.  In my experience, once you get there, it does indeed sound much better.

   The main benefit, I would say, is that it sounds consistent across all different recordings and types of music.  Before, I feel like some recordings sounded good, and others not so good. While this is still true with a flatter setup (after all, there will always be good recordings and bad ones), I find that more recordings sound good than before.  It's hard to put into words, but I guess you aren't dependent on the frequency humps of your speakers landing in the right ranges for the instruments on the recording.  I hope that makes sense.  Instead of having good jazz speakers (even midrange response) or good rock and roll speakers (strong bass and highs), you can have it all!

   With well-designed speakers, it may not take much to get there.  My setup is 2-way with a sub (LS bass bins, DE-750TN drivers on ZXPC horns and a THT sub).  I am currently using 3 PEQs on the HF section, one on the LF section, and surprisingly, none on the sub.  So we are only talking 4 PEQs for the entire frequency range.  This gets me from ~22hz - 20khz at +/- 3dB.  That is about as good as you can hope for FR wise.  In reality, it is not quite that flat, as I choose to boost the bass frequencies a bit.  It just sounds better to me that way. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Tarheel TJ said:

    Yes, they do sound different.  At times, shockingly so.  In fact, when you take a setup you have been listening to for a while and EQ it, it often sounds "wrong" at first.  I think this is because your ears and your brain get very used to a particular FR and learn to compensate for it.  After listening to the EQ'ed setup for a while, you can switch back to the previous setup and now IT will sound wrong.  Over time, your system and your ears begin to zero in on a flatter frequency response.  In my experience, once you get there, it does indeed sound much better.

   The main benefit, I would say, is that it sounds consistent across all different recordings and types of music.  Before, I feel like some recordings sounded good, and others not so good. While this is still true with a flatter setup (after all, there will always be good recordings and bad ones), I find that more recordings sound good than before.  It's hard to put into words, but I guess you aren't dependent on the frequency humps of your speakers landing in the right ranges for the instruments on the recording.  I hope that makes sense.  Instead of having good jazz speakers (even midrange response) or good rock and roll speakers (strong bass and highs), you can have it all!

   With well-designed speakers, it may not take much to get there.  My setup is 2-way with a sub (LS bass bins, DE-750TN drivers on ZXPC horns and a THT sub).  I am currently using 3 PEQs on the HF section, one on the LF section, and surprisingly, none on the sub.  So we are only talking 4 PEQs for the entire frequency range.  This gets me from ~22hz - 20khz at +/- 3dB.  That is about as good as you can hope for FR wise.  In reality, it is not quite that flat, as I choose to boost the bass frequencies a bit.  It just sounds better to me that way. 

 

 

Ok, so it does make a good improvement.  I have never EQed a home stereo, but back in the day I always had an octave EQ in my car audio systems. Those did make a big improvement in sound.  When I pull my 12w amp off my Super Heresy and put the 25w amp on, the only thing I hear different is the low and mid bass at the same db levels is better.  This cornscala project will be 4 to 6 months, will see how they sound when their complete. May be looking to EQ them.  What EQ would you recommend?

 

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The only unit I have any experience with is the MiniDSP 4x10.  It works very well for what I need.  Some have complained about the sound quality of MiniDSP units, and I can only imagine they are using the non HD version that runs at 16/44z. The HD units run 24/96 and sounds fantastic to me.  Certainly far better than using stock passive crossovers.  You do have to be careful to manage your gain structure properly to keep the noise floor down.  All of my amps have volume pots, so this is easy to do.

   Chris A has had great experience with the Xillica units and recommends them.  Someday I may give one a try to see if the sound quality is improved, but they are a step up in price as well.  For now, I am very happy with what I have.  

   Whatever you get, just make sure it is a digital unit.  They are so much more capable than the old analog types.  

   Combined with your Cornscala project, a digital crossover/EQ should make you very happy indeed.

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5 hours ago, Tarheel TJ said:

The only unit I have any experience with is the MiniDSP 4x10.  It works very well for what I need.  Some have complained about the sound quality of MiniDSP units, and I can only imagine they are using the non HD version that runs at 16/44z. The HD units run 24/96 and sounds fantastic to me.  Certainly far better than using stock passive crossovers.  You do have to be careful to manage your gain structure properly to keep the noise floor down.  All of my amps have volume pots, so this is easy to do.

   Chris A has had great experience with the Xillica units and recommends them.  Someday I may give one a try to see if the sound quality is improved, but they are a step up in price as well.  For now, I am very happy with what I have.  

   Whatever you get, just make sure it is a digital unit.  They are so much more capable than the old analog types.  

   Combined with your Cornscala project, a digital crossover/EQ should make you very happy indeed.

Like these?

xilica DSP.jpg

mini DSP.jpg

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Those are it.  Like I said, just make sure if you get a MiniDSP that you get the HD version.  It is $100 more, but worth it.

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