Bass dropoff for Khorn Bin for various config's question.

[Escher]

I know the "enclosed back" K-horn topic has been discussed ad-nauseam - so I apologize in advance... but I haven't seen a clear cut answer to this question.

 

Referencing the image below - anyone know or have frequencey falloff curves for some of the following closed back configurations?

 

A - Area 1 - Current K-Horn bass bin footprint - similar to the newest model

B -Area 1+2 - Adding some extension, but not a full "false wall"

C -Area 1+2+3 - Same as above, but extending this flush with front face

D - Area 1+2+3+4 - Full "false wall" extension that stops at the plane of the front face.

 

I'm leaning toward "C" to save on some space, but am curious as to how much loss there will be. (Corrected... I had said D, when I meant C)

 

 

 

[ClaudeJ1]

I had 2 false corners identical to the ones Paul Klipsch had in his home. He said anything beyond 4 feet from the corner wouldn't make a "dime's worth of difference" when I was at his house listening to them. So the 2 legs of your triangle should be 4 feet with a height tall enough cover the bass bin height. I just cut by plywood sheet in half to make 2 4x4 foot (48x48 inches or 1.22x1.22 meters) pieces for each false corner. Easy to do.

[Deang]

"D" would use the most space, right? Do "A", and keep the Khorn within a foot or so of the corner.

[Escher]

My bad - I meant "C"... to save some space.... trying to type and put this together in between jobs at work...

[Escher]

22 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

I had 2 false corners identical to the ones Paul Klipsch had in his home. He said anything beyond 4 feet from the corner wouldn't make a "dime's worth of difference" when I was at his house listening to them. So the 2 legs of your triangle should be 4 feet with a height tall enough cover the bass bin height. I just cut by plywood sheet in half to make 2 4x4 foot (48x48 inches or 1.22x1.22 meters) pieces for each false corner. Easy to do.

 

Yep - I've seen that referenced before.. and I get it.

 

Trying to salvage my K-Horns and not sell them - but also want them out of the corners and don't have room for the full 48" extension... 

 

For reference if you haven't seen my other thread - this is the space I'm working with:

Untitled by Christopher Purdy, on Flickr

 

And I know - sell them and get LaScala's - yep - that would be my goal....but I'm stuck for now.

 

What I'm wanting to know is - are we talking about losing bass below 40Hz? 50Hz?   I am actively EQ'ing so I can compensate somewhat..

[Escher]

..anticipating some other questions...

 

The other reason for this is that these are Decorators in custom cabinets - approx 3" wider and 4-5" taller than regular K-horns..  To save space I'm planning to pull them back out and ditch the cabinets, and add sides and tophats that are a bit smaller than standard height.  I figured I'd enclose the backs while I was at it so I could adjust the stereo image as its such a short wall.... 

 

....and that brings us to this thread...

[Shakeydeal]

19 minutes ago, Escher said:

 

Yep - I've seen that referenced before.. and I get it.

 

Trying to salvage my K-Horns and not sell them - but also want them out of the corners and don't have room for the full 48" extension... 

 

For reference if you haven't seen my other thread - this is the space I'm working with:

Untitled by Christopher Purdy, on Flickr

 

And I know - sell them and get LaScala's - yep - that would be my goal....but I'm stuck for now.

 

What I'm wanting to know is - are we talking about losing bass below 40Hz? 50Hz?   I am actively EQ'ing so I can compensate somewhat..

 

There is no way I would listen to khorns in that space. Your head would have to be almost where that backpack is. Now that I see it, no Lascalas either.

 

Now before I get bashed let me say this. Yes, Lascalas and Khorns will "work" in that space. But they will be FAR from optimized. You are better off with a small pair of monitors. Or better yet, a high quality pair of cans and amp.

 

Always chose the right speaker for the room. And sometimes a smaller, less expensive alternative will sound far better.

 

Shakey

 

[Escher]

Ohhh LaScalas used to live here - and they were AMAAAZING...  But in my stupidity I sold them...  The absolutley *do* work in the room... for me.

 

Only reason I have the K-Horns is because I got them at the right time for the right price.... and figured I'd give it a go.

 

They do sound awesome in the room - but you are correct - the "sweet spot" is very tight. 

 

Let's agree that some people will not find this setup to their liking - and that's fine... but that's not the purpose of my thread.

 

Now  - instead of all the things I can't or won't do - I'd like to understand the issue at hand - bass falloff with various back panel types.

 

Bottom line - these puppy's are getting modded and I am trying to decide the best route to take.

 

 

[Escher]

Just because I find this so amusing - You would die if you saw what I've had in this space in the past...

 

Full Size Magnepans:

Magnepan MGII custom stands by Christopher Purdy, on Flickr

 

Electrovoice Sentry's:

Ev sentry by Christopher Purdy, on Flickr

 

LaScala's:

Untitled by Christopher Purdy, on Flickr

 

The Sentry's were the monsters of the bunch...

[Escher]

Hijacking my own thread - because I just can't let it go..

 

This notion is just so common among Hi-end audio forums... the whole "You can't do that in that space" mindset...  and by the numbers, sure - I understand.

 

But here is the question - if this is your only option, albeit not optimal - would you really go without experiencing amazing speakers just because the consensus was that your room was poor for the setup?

 

I have enjoyed (and currently LOVE) all my setups.  I'm just looking at ways to optimize - I'm an engineer - its what I do - I take stuff apart and change it, mod it, and sometimes put it back the way it was... and sometimes not.  That's the fun of the hobby for me.   

[glens]

 

 

Quote

 

 



 

Evidently the bass horn expands both ways, so if you extend a horizontal surface at the top (and bottom) as in any method but "1" I'd surmise that you'd be extending the horn length with continued expansion horizontally while stopping off further vertical expansion.  Now I can't say whether that would be detrimental or not, but if you consider an equivalent scenario (actually, taking things a bit further), say making an open-back box 3" deep the shape and size of the squawker horn mouth, and mounting it in front of the squawker horn, would that change the sound any for better or worse?

 

Notwithstanding the fact that at one time Klipsch made a "pro" model configured as "1-4", I'd be inclined to go with just "1" like the current factory-enclosed model does.

[glens]

Of all the speakers you've shown so far, the Maggies have to been the least suitable.

[Escher]

11 minutes ago, glens said:

Of all the speakers you've shown so far, the Maggies have to been the least suitable.

hehehe - you are right - the "sweet spot" was about 6 foot in front, and about 10 inches wide... if you moved your head from side to side you would hear the falloff.

 

I love the Magnepan design and theory - but the laserbeam sweetspot I can't get past. (Had MMG's as mains for years in my living room).

17 minutes ago, glens said:

I'd be inclined to go with just "1" like the current factory-enclosed model does. 

 

I'm thinking about trying that for sake of space and then checking the room with my DEQ2496 to see how the bass performance is.... I can always recut the back panels and extend them later... or compensate in EQ if the falloff isn't too bad.

[ClaudeJ1]

24 minutes ago, Escher said:

Hijacking my own thread - because I just can't let it go..

 

This notion is just so common among Hi-end audio forums... the whole "You can't do that in that space" mindset...  and by the numbers, sure - I understand.

 

But here is the question - if this is your only option, albeit not optimal - would you really go without experiencing amazing speakers just because the consensus was that your room was poor for the setup?

 

I have enjoyed (and currently LOVE) all my setups.  I'm just looking at ways to optimize - I'm an engineer - its what I do - I take stuff apart and change it, mod it, and sometimes put it back the way it was... and sometimes not.  That's the fun of the hobby for me.   

Once you enclose the backs, like Dean said, you will have the freedom to toe them out, like the LaScalas. The Knorns take up way less floor space than LaScalas. Once you have done all this, then putting DaveA's MAHL super tweeters in the tops and going for a 3 way Xilica active Xover with some Chinese chip amps will do the trick. 

[Escher]

1 minute ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Once you enclose the backs, like Dean said, you will have the freedom to toe them out, like the LaScalas. The Knorns take up way less floor space than LaScalas. Once you have done all this, then putting DaveA's MAHL super tweeters in the tops and going for a 3 way Xilica active Xover with some Chinese chip amps will do the trick. 

2

Have you been stalking my youtube channel...? 

 

My only claim to limited youtube fame is a set of heavily modded Tripath amps (Lepai) I was using with the Lascala's back several years ago...

 

Truth be told - other than the lumber - there isn't much that is Klipsch in these anymore - all the drivers are from Crites as are the X-overs.

 

I was looking at DaveA's walnut tweeter horns - be still my heart!  I was already contemplating going with a Walnut panel for the midrange and tweeter horns.

 

[ClaudeJ1]

4 minutes ago, Escher said:

Have you been stalking my youtube channel...? 

 

My only claim to limited youtube fame is a set of heavily modded Tripath amps (Lepai) I was using with the Lascala's back several years ago...

 

Truth be told - other than the lumber - there isn't much that is Klipsch in these anymore - all the drivers are from Crites as are the X-overs.

 

I was looking at DaveA's walnut tweeter horns - be still my heart!  I was already contemplating going with a Walnut panel for the midrange and tweeter horns.

 

I use several Tripath amps for testing. I did a Khorn demo with false corners using a Sonic Impact with 8 AA batteries and a battery operated Sony CD players. Sold my Khorns is 5 minutes flat with that demo. I just got a pair of DaveA's WALNUT tweeter horns for my Super Heresy 2.0 mod. But Super Cornwalls will be first. PEQ's and time delays are your friends with Khorns at close quarters. With Khorns, it's ALL in the lumber.

[glens]

6 minutes ago, Escher said:

I was looking at DaveA's walnut tweeter horns - be still my heart! 

 

I don't know...  I just read that a lot of air (presumably bass) leaks out all around them! 

[ClaudeJ1]

3 minutes ago, glens said:

 

I don't know...  I just read that a lot of air (presumably bass) leaks out all around them! 

You must be joking. You need more than one smiley face to make sure we know!!

 

[glens]

18 minutes ago, Escher said:

34 minutes ago, glens said:

Of all the speakers you've shown so far, the Maggies have to been the least suitable.

hehehe - you are right - the "sweet spot" was about 6 foot in front, and about 10 inches wide... if you moved your head from side to side you would hear the falloff.

 

Well, there's that, too (head in vise sweet spot), but to get them away from the walls like they need to be, it looks like you'd be wearing them as headphones.

[glens]

1 minute ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

5 minutes ago, glens said:

 

I don't know...  I just read that a lot of air (presumably bass) leaks out all around them!  

You must be joking. You need more than one smiley face to make sure we know!!

 

In a recent post somewhere here, the person was feeling the air at the port and felt air on his face, too, coming out the tweeter.  Now I'm no expert, but that would surely mess up the sound on khorns!