Klipsch Belles - Looking for tips

[ForKyleigh]

I just purchased a set of Klipsch Belles a few days back.  I am still messing around with setup, placements, etc.  Yes know room will play a role in all of this.  Just looking to see what worked for others with Belles.  Towed in?  A lot?  A little?  Of the back wall or on?  Close to corners or away?

 

The room is in my finished basement.  Walls and ceilings are drywalled and insulated.  I only have an area rug and a large couch as notable items to help with sound down there.  So, I know I will have to change that.

 

Presently they are being powered by a Marantz 7011 as a preamp and a Parasound HCA-2205 amp.  I haven't even had a chance to wrap my head around other options at this point.  Ie may poke around at a tube amp at some point, but the Belles will serve mixed use.  Likely 80-90% music and the rest would be home theater. 

 

Belles are 1975 with AA crossovers.  They are all original.  In the past I had  RF7, Chorus ii, Chorus, xf48 in Klipsch.  I have had other models outside of the Klipsch name as well.  Nothing quite like the Belles though.

[Audible Nectar]

What worked for me was a new set of crossover networks, as my 1976 Belle Klipsch networks were certainly tired (and FWIW I like the AA network, just using high quality parts) and a really good front end (amp and preamp). Belle Klipsch really like tube gear - where I’ve obtained the best results,, although I have used solid state to good effect as well, but they have always sounded best with tubes to my ears. 

 

My journey with my Bicentennial Belles always got better as I upgraded the parts all the way up the chain, from speaker to source. Crossovers, tube gear, caps in that tube gear,  tubes in that tube gear....just get everything in the chain as clean as can be and the lovely ladies will reward you.

 

Some acoustic treatment in the basement can’t hurt either, even cloth type decorations/hangings on the walls can make things more settled down if things get too “live” in the room.

[Tony Whitlow]

Stuff them as far as they will go into the corner and toe them in 45 degrees. Best efficiency and imaging.


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[ForKyleigh]

There is a Dynamic St-500 close to me.  It is an old tube amp.  Would it be something to play with to start?  I know nothing about tubes.  So I wouldnt want to invest much yet.  It is the same one that is on ebay.

[Audible Nectar]

7 hours ago, ForKyleigh said:

There is a Dynamic St-500 close to me.  It is an old tube amp.  Would it be something to play with to start?  I know nothing about tubes.  So I wouldnt want to invest much yet.  It is the same one that is on ebay.

 

Start out by refreshing your crossovers - get new capacitors in them at minimum. Bob Crites (posts as BEC) can help you out on this on the lower cost end, DeanG on the "premium" end of the rebuild spectrum.

 

THEN -

 

Listen to your current kit with those refreshed crossovers for a time. Give it six months. Take any opportunity you get in the meantime to listen to a "big Heritage" system with GOOD tubes. This can be a set of Belle Klipsch, LaScala, or Klipschorn on a GOOD tube system. Then you'll know/hear if it's what you like (and a GOOD one - you will).

 

I saved a LOT of money by not doing the "incremental upgrade" thing. Finally made a drive to an amp builder's place and heard a GOOD tube rig on a set of LaScalas, then I knew what I was gunning for and never looked back.

 

You can, of course, experiment with lower cost tube gear and do the incremental upgrade thing, but it's really not the same sonically (but can be fun on the "journey/hobby" aspect). There will be some very alluring aspects of course but stuff that will also be missing.

 

That said, the best investigation you will do here is getting out there and making trips to hear Heritage based systems on GOOD tubes. GOOD solid state, too, and then you'll know about that, too. Then, you'll know between your own ears whether that's what's right for you. No other way of doing this ever got me as far, and understanding what I was really chasing, until I did that.

 

I then blew by all of the "mid-die" level stuff and went to the gears that made my Belles sing, and lived happily ever after 🙂

[ForKyleigh]

I looked at the crites stuff.  I worked with in on my previous Chorus II.  I was looking at the 4500/A crossover he offer which requires the tweeter change.  That would leave me with my AA crossovers for historical and resale purposes.  That would also leave my k77s with factory items in it.  But that is a higher cost than just ordering caps from Crites.  Any thoughts on this?  Did you just redo the caps?

[jimjimbo]

9 minutes ago, ForKyleigh said:

I looked at the crites stuff.  I worked with in on my previous Chorus II.  I was looking at the 4500/A crossover he offer which requires the tweeter change.  That would leave me with my AA crossovers for historical and resale purposes.  That would also leave my k77s with factory items in it.  But that is a higher cost than just ordering caps from Crites.  Any thoughts on this?  Did you just redo the caps?

Yes, just redo the caps, for now.

[avguytx]

I'm in the camp of replacing the caps for now.  Many to choose from, for sure.  I built a new set of AA crossovers for my Belle "clones" and used the Audyn Plus caps.  For the couple of months I got to listen to them before having to store them away (sold house), they sounded great.  Solen and Dayton caps are the other two I've used a lot of through the years.  In the original AA crossovers that came with the Belle parts I bought, I ordered some of those Russian MGBO NOS paper in oil caps from an e b a y seller.  They sounded nice, too, and were an experiment for the most part.

 

The only reason I built "new" AA crossovers was that since I spent the time and money to build a "new" pair of Belles with all new drivers, might as well have new crossovers to go with them.

 

Original AA crossovers before

 

 

 

And after with the Russian PIO caps

 

 

New Type AA's I built

 

[ForKyleigh]

50 minutes ago, avguytx said:

I'm in the camp of replacing the caps for now.  Many to choose from, for sure.  I built a new set of AA crossovers for my Belle "clones" and used the Audyn Plus caps.  For the couple of months I got to listen to them before having to store them away (sold house), they sounded great.  Solen and Dayton caps are the other two I've used a lot of through the years.  In the original AA crossovers that came with the Belle parts I bought, I ordered some of those Russian MGBO NOS paper in oil caps from an e b a y seller.  They sounded nice, too, and were an experiment for the most part.

 

The only reason I built "new" AA crossovers was that since I spent the time and money to build a "new" pair of Belles with all new drivers, might as well have new crossovers to go with them.

 

Original AA crossovers before

 

 

 

 

And after with the Russian PIO caps

 

 

 

New Type AA's I built

 

 

 

I don't know enough to build my own.  I would only know enough to get the same spec caps that I have right now.  From there I could solder them in.  But I don't know anything about the transformers, etc. that are on the old ones.  So I would either need my hand held or I should stick to either ordering a kit or the crossovers from Bob.

 

On a side note, didn't DeanG get out of the business?  I thought I read that at some point.

[ricktate]

58 minutes ago, avguytx said:

I'm in the camp of replacing the caps for now.  Many to choose from, for sure.  I built a new set of AA crossovers for my Belle "clones" and used the Audyn Plus caps.  For the couple of months I got to listen to them before having to store them away (sold house), they sounded great.  Solen and Dayton caps are the other two I've used a lot of through the years.  In the original AA crossovers that came with the Belle parts I bought, I ordered some of those Russian MGBO NOS paper in oil caps from an e b a y seller.  They sounded nice, too, and were an experiment for the most part.

 

The only reason I built "new" AA crossovers was that since I spent the time and money to build a "new" pair of Belles with all new drivers, might as well have new crossovers to go with them.

 

Original AA crossovers before

 

 

 

And after with the Russian PIO caps

 

 

New Type AA's I built

 

Those look to be type A crossovers ,,,no diodes the type AA has diodes to protect tweeter.

[avguytx]

They are Type  AA...no klip diodes needed with the CT120 tweeters. Type A only has single 2uf cap on the tweeter and no .245mh coil. 

[NOSValves]

On 4/16/2019 at 8:43 PM, Tony Whitlow said:

Stuff them as far as they will go into the corner and toe them in 45 degrees. Best efficiency and imaging.


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Not sure why one would own Bells if my room and placement is best served "in the corner toed 45 degrees" might just as well have Khorns. The main reason to own Bells or Lascalas is to get away from that limited placement at the price of lower frequency response. In the corners yes if possible.... 45 degrees not so much.

I'd suggest toeing them so they merge anywhere from just in front to just behind your head.   

[Tony Whitlow]

In Volume 15 No.5 of “The Dope From Hope” Paul W. Klipsch said all speakers sound best in the corner. Just because the cabinet is not angled to fit in the corner does not mean it can’t be placed in the corner. I have LaScalas for front speakers and Heresys for rears. They are all in the corners on a 45 degree toe in. I have tried many different speaker placements and found this to be the best. The wide dispersion of a horn tweeter does not require on axis listening. At 45 degrees it allows excellent imaging for everyone in the room regardless of their seating location.


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[Islander]

9 hours ago, Tony Whitlow said:

In Volume 15 No.5 of “The Dope From Hope” Paul W. Klipsch said all speakers sound best in the corner. Just because the cabinet is not angled to fit in the corner does not mean it can’t be placed in the corner. I have LaScalas for front speakers and Heresys for rears. They are all in the corners on a 45 degree toe in. I have tried many different speaker placements and found this to be the best. The wide dispersion of a horn tweeter does not require on axis listening. At 45 degrees it allows excellent imaging for everyone in the room regardless of their seating location.
 

 

I was using about a 30 degree toe-in angle with my JubScala IIs, but I found that the sweet spot was very narrow, to the point that moving my head even a very few inches to one side or the other caused the stereo image to break, so the sound would seem to be coming from the nearest speaker only.  Last week, I reduced the toe-in angle of the tweeters by 10 degrees or so, and the sweet spot became quite a bit wider.  I’m going to experiment further, until I find the optimum position for my use.

[glens]

Wider sweet spot is obtained by crossing in front of you.

[JohnA]

The things I did that were noticeable:

New Musicaps

Wrapping the squawker horns with Dynamat

Stuffing the open, upper cabinet tightly with polyester fiberfill

Disconnecting the KLiP diodes

Front mounting the K-77-M horns

Substituting DE-120/Fastrac tweeter horns for K-77-Ms.

 

[mikebse2a3]

20 hours ago, Islander said:

 

I was using about a 30 degree toe-in angle with my JubScala IIs, but I found that the sweet spot was very narrow, to the point that moving my head even a very few inches to one side or the other caused the stereo image to break, so the sound would seem to be coming from the nearest speaker only.  Last week, I reduced the toe-in angle of the tweeters by 10 degrees or so, and the sweet spot became quite a bit wider.  I’m going to experiment further, until I find the optimum position for my use.

 

The K402 has such a smooth even polar angle versus SPL over a very wide frequency range that toe-in doesn’t interact with the sweet spot to as high of a degree of change as past Klipsch horn designs.  I find using Toe-in of the K402 is more about changing how the early reflections from the side, back and front walls interact with the sweet spot to be the main benefit to enhance imaging and tonal balance in typical reflective room conditions many seem to have.

 

miketn