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old school Klipsch LaScala


jlong

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35 minutes ago, jimjimbo said:

Considering you have an older cabinet, my recommendation would be to go with the CT120 tweeters, A55G mids and a new AA network, all from Crites.  These are all proven to work very well together and sound great.  You could also replace the woofers if you want, and if you are going to go that route, I would suggest the Eminence Kappa 15C from Parts Express.  All of the above I have done many times with great success.

 

That is good advice.

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I thought about doing the base bin upgrade on my la scalas but decided against it and put a Klipsch 115 sub in the room with them, works great!  Some will turn their noses up at mixing horns and direct radiators but it was cheap (already had the sub) and sounds great to me (the one who listens to it)!

 

and I second the Crites upgrades, did the same to a pair of Belles and it was a noticeable improvement.  If you want an even better crossover look at ALK Engineering.  Several levels of upgrade options and price points.

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2 hours ago, CAMike said:

Great info jimjimbo and Islander, thank you.  I appreciate your input.

You're right, the AA sounds great.  I will indeed replace the woofer as well.   Don't get me wrong. I appreciate the accuracy of the OEM Lascala lower but I want to get as much bass out of it as I can before I consider adding the 12" bass box with dual 4 inch ports that are 7 inches long.  Any suggestions for improving the LF response without adding the lower box?  Or is the bottom box more or less a mandatory for the older Lascala?

(I have a poor history of product longevity with self powered subs.)

 

By their nature, horns have to be very big to produce low bass.  That’s why the Klipschorn was such a breakthrough:  getting low bass out of a relatively compact cabinet.  The La Scala, on the other hand, was designed to be portable for travelling PA use, so its horn is not long enough to go below 50 Hz with any authority.  When I was setting up my sub to work with the original (1974) La Scalas, using a test CD and a sound level meter, I soon noticed that the speaker started to roll off at 100Hz!  It tapered off smoothly, but did keep tapering off, before dropping even faster from 50 Hz on down.

 

Modifying a La Scala to produce lower bass notes than it was designed for results in very limited gains.  Some users are satisfied with that, or even with the bass response of a stock LS.  Those folks are greatly outnumbered by the ones who need more and deeper bass.  

 

The only way to make a La Scala produce much more deep bass would be to add a few feet to the length of the bass horn, which is impractical for most people.  However, there’s a general consensus on the Forum that La Scalas combined with a good sub can equal or even exceed the performance of a Klipschorn, without having to find ideal corners for them, as is required with K-horns.  My living room has not one K-horn suitable corner, due to baseboard heaters, etc.

 

This means that for nearly all music, and for all movies, a sub is pretty much a necessity.  I’ve run mine with two different subs:  a 90-watt 8” unit (briefly) and the one I presently use, a 500-watt 10” sub.  The small sub was adequate for acoustic folk music and the like, but not for rock music or movies.  The bigger sub, on the other hand, does a great job with any kind of material, and its volume knob is just at the 11 o’clock position.

 

While a horn-loaded sub may be ideal, a direct-firing sub can do a fine job.  Even in the big $600,000 (seriously) top of the line 5-way horn speaker from Magico, the lowest bass is produced by a direct-firing built-in sub, so there’s no shame in that.

 

Sadly, Klipsch subs don’t have a great reputation for reliability, but there are quite a few good-quality brands that could serve you well.  Timbre matching is not a factor, since the deep bass range is not heard by our ears with the same clarity or ability to localize its position, due to the sound waves being so long.

 

Also, just as regular speakers roll off as they’re producing lower and lower bass, subs roll off as they’re producing the higher notes in their range.  This means that some overlap in the settings is required to produce a continuous even sound level in the range where the speaker and sub interact.  I set my sub’s top cutoff at 120Hz, but I know it starts to roll off somewhat below that point.  Testing confirmed that setting the cutoff that high produced the most even frequency response and realistic sound.  The bass was not exaggerated or over-emphasized, it was properly present and accurate when the music or movie called for it, and not noticeable when bass instruments were not being played or explosions, etc., were not happening.

 

 Accordingly, I recommend you find a sub that’s both reliable and able to produce deep enough and strong enough tones to accurately reproduce the sounds you like to listen to.  There’s no need to go for big expensive room-shakers, unless you have a really, really, big room.  However, as the saying goes, “better to have more power than you need, so you won’t find yourself with less power than you need”.  Just like with regular speakers, a sub that’s working easily, well within its limits, will have less distortion, clearer sound, and will be more reliable.  A 10” or 12” driver in a sub, powered by 500 watts or more, should do the job, but if you regularly listen at very high volume, something stronger could be a good idea.  If your home’s not a rock bar or disco, there’s no need to get a huge sub.

 

Do some research in the Subwoofer section on this forum, and wherever you can find some useful info, and you’ll be able to find the right sub for your room, your ears, and your speakers.  Happy hunting!

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Before you do any bass bin mod or even get a sub, install the Eminence Kappa 15C woofers and listen to them for a while.  I was shocked at how great they sounded in a couple of pairs of La Scalas that I renovated.  Give them a little bit of time to break in.

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8 minutes ago, jimjimbo said:

Before you do any bass bin mod or even get a sub, install the Eminence Kappa 15C woofers and listen to them for a while.  I was shocked at how great they sounded in a couple of pairs of La Scalas that I renovated.  Give them a little bit of time to break in.

 

Curious what the improvement was?

lower, smoother, harder hitting...?

Have you or others tried these in Belle’s?

Thanks!

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18 minutes ago, jimjimbo said:

Before you do any bass bin mod or even get a sub, install the Eminence Kappa 15C woofers and listen to them for a while.  I was shocked at how great they sounded in a couple of pairs of La Scalas that I renovated.  Give them a little bit of time to break in.

 

Will Do.  I will order all the parts next week and give my ears a few weeks to become adjusted once I get them back together.  Then after that period,  think about other LF improvement options if necessary.  Thanks.

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1 hour ago, CAMike said:

 I will order all the parts next week

 

Strong suggestion:  If you are going to go with the Crites CT-120, that is a more robust tweeter than the delicate OEM K-77.  Instead of the Type AA crossover, go with the Crites A/4500.  It lowers the crossover point from 6,000 Hz to 4500 Hz.  I did that mod with my Khorns and the performance improvement was noticeable.

 

Another advantage is the A/4500 is $100 less than the Crites Type AA.  You could just about fund the new tweets with the savings.

https://critesspeakers.com/prices_-_new_crossovers.html

 

59fcd8e18fa70_CritesA-4500top01-03-17.thumb.JPG.e20ef3a0cfce7ac5e43f8bd6f7af079d.JPG

These ^^^ were my A/4500 which were modified with a different HF capacitor.

+++

 

FYI:  I couldn't read the label very well but you'll notice the s/n is stamped into the back just below the K-55V.  The letter (not number) will tell you what year those were born.

 

FYI:  I could read enough of the label to see LS - BR.  Those speakers started life as Birch Raw, not black.  Somebody painted them.  If you painted them over with more black paint it might help with the smokey smell.

 

FYI:  Remember the old components still have resale value.  You should be able to sell them off to recoup part of the prices of the new stuff.

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1 hour ago, Heaterman said:

 

Curious what the improvement was?

lower, smoother, harder hitting...?

Have you or others tried these in Belle’s?

Thanks!

The best way I can describe it is this....while the Kappa does not go quite as low as the stock K33, the mid bass impact it has is substantial, and noticeable.  And yes, I have put them in Belle's, and had the same, positive impression.

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12 minutes ago, jimjimbo said:

The best way I can describe it is this....while the Kappa does not go quite as low as the stock K33, the mid bass impact it has is substantial, and noticeable.  And yes, I have put them in Belle's, and had the same, positive impression.

I have had the exact same experience with the kappa 15c as Jim, in both LS and Belle's. I really don't notice any loss in how low they go but that is probably due to the impact of the mid bass, which is one of the many things I love about my horn loaded LF speakers. I have subs with mine, but rarely turn them on.

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46 minutes ago, jimjimbo said:

The best way I can describe it is this....while the Kappa does not go quite as low as the stock K33, the mid bass impact it has is substantial, and noticeable.  And yes, I have put them in Belle's, and had the same, positive impression.

That is exactly why I like the K-43's over the 33's. Double the wattage capacity too so they just loaf along at any level you can stand.

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2 hours ago, Islander said:

Why the recommendation to replace the stock squawker drivers with A55G models?  Are the present drivers showing any problems?

 

No current issues with the original K55V's, they sound great.  I'd still like to utilize the K400 horns though.  

Are the A55G's significantly better sounding to the K55v single phase push pin connector transducers?

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59 minutes ago, CAMike said:

 

No current issues with the original K55V's, they sound great.  I'd still like to utilize the K400 horns though.  

Are the A55G's significantly better sounding to the K55v single phase push pin connector transducers?

 

No idea.  I’m using the stock K400 horns myself, albeit with Dynamat XL applied to them.  I’m sure someone else will know which flavour of K-55 sounds best, or why one or another is preferred.  As far as I know, all of them screw onto the K400 horns.

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I have a DynaMat'd  single K-400   FOR SALE !!

 

Also, a A55G Ciites driver ...available.  (under 50 hours use, at low volumes.... pretty much still NEW)

And a K77 Tweeter ...available.

 

281-469-1111

Craig LeMay

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8 hours ago, CAMike said:

 

No current issues with the original K55V's, they sound great.  I'd still like to utilize the K400 horns though.  

Are the A55G's significantly better sounding to the K55v single phase push pin connector transducers?

In my experience, yes.  I think you'll find quite a few other members here that feel the same way.  They are compatible with the K400 horns, and recommend that you also replace the driver to horn gasket, also from Bob Crites.

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1 hour ago, jimjimbo said:

In my experience, yes.  I think you'll find quite a few other members here that feel the same way.  They are compatible with the K400 horns, and recommend that you also replace the driver to horn gasket, also from Bob Crites.

 

I think what I'll do is replace the balancing network with either the A4500 or AA and replace the K77 with the CT120's and then listen for a week or so.  Then swap out the K77 and Woofer to see if I like the differences.  That one thing about components, you can always put the OEM's back in if you like.

 

Of the A4500 and AA networks, will I lose any LF authority with one or the other?  I want to reveal as much LF as the Lascalas will permit.

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1 minute ago, CAMike said:

 

I think what I'll do is replace the balancing network with either the A4500 or AA and replace the K77 with the CT120's and then listen for a week or so.  Then swap out the K77 and Woofer to see if I like the differences.  That one thing about components, you can always put the OEM's back in if you like.

 

Of the A4500 and AA networks, will I lose any LF authority with one or the other?  I want to reveal as much LF as the Lascalas will permit.

Good plan.  The 4500 is the best option for your way going forward.

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