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KLF-510?


MenloBob
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Introducing the "KLF-510" DIY build. A mumps K510/K691 horn on top of a custom 2x12 sealed bass bin with Eminence KappaLite Neo 3012LF drivers. Active crossover with miniDSP OpenDRC 2x8. Four channels of home built IcePower amplification, one stereo at 90w/channel for the K510s and one dual mono at 400w/channel for the bass bins. 

I've been wanting a K510 "miniJube" horn setup since first reading about them way back in this thread from 2006. Finally bit the bullet and bought the 904-HF bundle which includes the horns, drivers and stands. My dad is in town so we spent the weekend building the cabinets. First air moving last night, and DSP tuning today.  Below is a REW plot with bass extension filters active vs flat (other than Roy's 904 horn CD PEQs).

 

Thanks to all the forum members for the inspiration, but especially @ClaudeJ1 and @Chris A from whom I've learned a ton just reading the forums over the years.IMG_1414.thumb.jpg.c23c906634ba7a22ed0f1704cf2df703.jpg

 

 

Bass EQ.jpg

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1 hour ago, MenloBob said:

Introducing the "KLF-510" DIY build. A mumps K510/K691 horn on top of a custom 2x12 sealed bass bin with Eminence KappaLite Neo 3012LF drivers. Active crossover with miniDSP OpenDRC 2x8. Four channels of home built IcePower amplification, one stereo at 90w/channel for the K510s and one dual mono at 400w/channel for the bass bins. 

I've been wanting a K510 "miniJube" horn setup since first reading about them way back in this thread from 2006. Finally bit the bullet and bought the 904-HF bundle which includes the horns, drivers and stands. My dad is in town so we spent the weekend building the cabinets. First air moving last night, and DSP tuning today.  Below is a REW plot with bass extension filters active vs flat (other than Roy's 904 horn CD PEQs).

 

Thanks to all the forum members for the inspiration, but especially @ClaudeJ1 and @Chris A from whom I've learned a ton just reading the forums over the years.

 

 

 

Nice work. With a sealed cabinet and PEQ, I'll be that bass is as tight as can be while going low. Excellent!

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51 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Nice work. With a sealed cabinet and PEQ, I'll be that bass is as tight as can be while going low. Excellent!

Thanks. It was your idea in a different thread. And the drivers barely move at 100db, which about as loud as I can tolerate in the room. 

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Klipsch should really make a 2 way with the K510 for the home market. These things sing.

2 way with a 15” woofer would be amazing. The pro 396 is popular for a reason. Maybe if a Chorus III has no market as it’d be in direct competition with the Cornwall III and Forte III, they could make it different as a 2 way Chorus III with K510 and 15” driver + passive radiator- though I’d like to see the passive larger than the direct radiator.

Or maybe a “CF-5” k510 d’appolito design!


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1 minute ago, Rivernuggets said:

Those look great! Very cool to see these in the flesh, after hearing your plans last month.

Do they fit in the room as planned?  😏

Hey Lyle,. I really got inspired after hearing the Jubes with you guys at Pilgrimage. What a blast!

 

Yeah, they fit great. I basically picked the dimensions to get close to the Eminence suggested volume with a bit extra for cushion on internal parts, and then to fit exactly next to the fireplace columns. It's either here or in the garage, so I'll take it. Even wife approved..

IMG_0638.HEIC

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38 minutes ago, Maximus89 said:


2 way with a 15” woofer would be amazing. The pro 396 is popular for a reason. Maybe if a Chorus III has no market as it’d be in direct competition with the Cornwall III and Forte III, they could make it different as a 2 way Chorus III with K510 and 15” driver + passive radiator- though I’d like to see the passive larger than the direct radiator.

Or maybe a “CF-5” k510 d’appolito design!


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Yes a CF-5 would be really cool !!

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Really nice look!  How are you planning on finishing them?  Is this your first 2 way and what were you listening to before this?  How would you compare the reproduction of the upper frequencies from the 510 versus other speakers that you've owned?  Did you take build pictures and if so, can you post them?  

 

 

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11 hours ago, MenloBob said:

Active crossover with miniDSP OpenDRC 2x8.

After the excitement settles a bit, it would be nice to know the signal-to-noise performance of the miniDSP OpenDRC 2x8.  Other reports that I've seen online mentioned quiescent noise from it, but others using it for direct radiators only (i.e., much lower sensitivity than horn-loaded compression drivers) have said that it works well. 

 

I've been using a miniDSP 2x4 HD on my ESS AMT-1/Belle bass bin surrounds and have been fairly impressed with no audible noise issues...and plenty of adjustability/PEQs per channel.  I'm about to start into using the FIR filters available within the 2x4 HD to flatten phase and SPL further.  However, the performance I'm getting presently without FIR filtering is a lot more than just satisfactory (note the scales used on the vertical axes--1 dB SPL and 45 degrees of phase):

 

161952937_ESSAMT-1withBelleBassBinSurround(Danley-StyleXOver)SPLandphase.thumb.jpg.951e418ccd4f8612e64df33322f0e2d3.jpg

 

Chris

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12 hours ago, MenloBob said:

Thanks. It was your idea in a different thread. And the drivers barely move at 100db, which about as loud as I can tolerate in the room. 

Physics is physics. Twin 12's is like a "fast" 18" driver because you have two powerful motors acting upon a very light cone. Keeping them in a sealed cabinet means you don't get the group delay involved in porting the box for extra bass, which is a trade-off vs. using more amplifier power via the EQ you are doing. But having so much cone area, it can handle it easily while giving you much more detailed MIDRANGE in the process. Let us know how they SOUND. I'd be curious to read your impressions to see if they track the science!

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12 hours ago, MenloBob said:

Thanks. It was your idea in a different thread. And the drivers barely move at 100db, which about as loud as I can tolerate in the room. 

It made perfect logical sense when I wrote it. It's nice to see someone actually BUILD one with that terrific "little" horn (Hey, I'm a K-402 guy remember, LOL). All those drivers are top shelf for sure, and the way you are using them is pretty much optimum, especially the "tweeter" height for proper imaging.

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Absolutely AWESOME!  Had planned to build a similar setup, but got lazy and bought some CF-3's.  After seeing yours I regret my decision :( 

(Too late now ... sold my extra set of K-510/691's )

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I am glad your project was a success. 

 

A couple of questions. First,  it looks like you have not yet applied the CD compensation on the tweeter yet (the hight end boost since this is a CD horn). I think you will be in store for a very nice surprise in sound quality. Second, it looks like there is quite a bit of boost on the low end. Will your woofers be able to take it or are you relying on using a delicate hand on the volume knob?

 

Good luck and I know you will enjoy them,

-Tom

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3 hours ago, Chris A said:

After the excitement settles a bit, it would be nice to know the signal-to-noise performance of the miniDSP OpenDRC 2x8.  Other reports that I've seen online mentioned quiescent noise from it, but others using it for direct radiators only (i.e., much lower sensitivity than horn-loaded compression drivers) have said that it works well. 

 

I've been using a miniDSP 2x4 HD on my ESS AMT-1/Belle bass bin surrounds and have been fairly impressed with no audible noise issues...and plenty of adjustability/PEQs per channel.  I'm about to start into using the FIR filters available within the 2x4 HD to flatten phase and SPL further.  However, the performance I'm getting presently without FIR filtering is a lot more than just satisfactory (note the scales used on the vertical axes--1 dB SPL and 45 degrees of phase):

 

161952937_ESSAMT-1withBelleBassBinSurround(Danley-StyleXOver)SPLandphase.thumb.jpg.951e418ccd4f8612e64df33322f0e2d3.jpg

 

Chris

 

I bought the miniDSP for another project I never ended up doing with direct radiators. It does have a higher noise floor but I came up with a pretty novel solution to the quiescent noise problem: gain optimization. Since the horns are significantly more efficient, the need lower gain then the woofers. Instead of adjusting the relative gains in the dsp, I added a high quality stereo pot on the horn outputs of the dsp and attenuated the analog signal out of the dsp down until the quiescent noise is inaudible, except with my ear right next to the horn. This moves the noise floor down the volume scale, and uses more bits in the dsp channels since the dsp runs a hotter signal.  

 

Then I gain balanced the woofer levels to match for flat response. My homebrew IcePower 125asx2 based amps don’t have adjustable gains, those with gain adjustment on their amp channels could do the same without the attenuator pot.

 

I need to measure the pot and see how much attenuation I’m using on the analog signal.  I’m getting about 95db on the REW calibrated SPL meter at 50% volume adjustment. 60% drives me out of the room so I think I have ample headroom. 90w for each horn and 400w for each bass bin should be absolute overkill. I think this approach opens up the MiniDsp 2x4HD as a viable solution for those interested in experimenting in active without making the investment in a Xilica to start.

 

Thanks to @adamh’s help I flattened out the response last night: -3db at 27hz and -7db at 20. Won’t need a sub and the bass is extremely tight. Next up is optimizing phase, but I have a bunch of reading of your posts to figure out where to start there. I did do a timing measurement that showed the drivers are physically aligned to 0.4ms, which is below the miniDSp threshold to adjust. This is a complete accident, but I’ll take a lucky break when I get it.

 

8DDFEB75-90DA-4500-8231-548EE5635F76.thumb.jpeg.030dfc9fdf583b397426fccaa92e17fe.jpeg

 

Here’s the attenuator I’m using: $50ish on Amazon.

 

439E3123-9302-4D85-831B-8A9D4776AD82.thumb.jpeg.b0298c951dc6fbed3f8bf237b38a6095.jpeg

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27 minutes ago, PrestonTom said:

First,  it looks like you have not yet applied the CD compensation on the tweeter yet (the hight end boost since this is a CD horn). I think you will be in store for a very nice surprise in sound quality. Second, it looks like there is quite a bit of boost on the low end. Will your woofers be able to take it or are you relying on using a delicate hand on the volume knob?

 

 

I had inadvertently left a 15kz low pass filter on the horns from initial testing. Honestly at 50 it’s hard for me to hear a difference. See the post above for the flattened response. I’m adjusting the gain stage so that max volume leaves some headroom on the bass without over excursion on the woofer.

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