Jump to content

Cornwall 'B3' – how best to approach aging crossovers; recommendations?


Endo
 Share

Recommended Posts

[Aside: Apologies in advance if this is a dead horse... If this is addressed somewhere else in the forum, please direct me and I'll remove the post (My searches were not effective... ) ]

 

I have 1983 Cornwalls with B3 crossovers. To my knowledge, all drivers and network components appear to be factory original. I've never had any complaints. When I bought them, these speakers were such an improvement over anything I'd had before that I never felt a need to pursue maintenance: I was very pleased with them–and quite frankly, did not want to mess with anything for fear of taking a step backwards (I was familiar with PWK's comments about 6 years and over 300 individual tests going into the first CW production model).

 

Anyway, I recently brought home some 1982 Belle's (came with newly installed Crites 'A' – not an 'AB' variant) and have been listening to the two pair of speakers alternately. I expected the main difference to be in the bass; with mid-range and tweeter somewhat comparable (different, perhaps–but, comparable)–but this is not so. I think the CW might need help.

 

My sense is that lots of members here have 'been there, done that' with problems like this, right? I need to do something, but can't afford to throw away money figuring out what may or may not work... I realize some practical trial-and-error is unavoidable, but where to begin:

    • 1. Replace caps only, then listen? or,

    • 2. Get the original boards diagnosed and fixed by a professional? or,

    • 3: Just buy new crossovers?

 

•–––> One last thing, if I begin by replacing caps only (doing it myself) and want to buy parts directly (eg. mouser) for the purpose of getting higher quality than what's available in kit form – what would I order?

 

I welcome suggestions. Thanks, guys.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

https://critesspeakers.com/

 

http://www.alkeng.com/klipsch

 

Those are the two entities and guys most frequently talked about that I've seen when refurbishing is needed. Other places if drivers need to be replaced are around too.

 

I'd say read through this and see if grabs you @ClaudeJ1 has done amazing work on the Heresy. haven't looked at his Cornwall thread in a while but that could be for you!

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I replaced the caps in my 86 Corn IIs but left the autoformer and inductor alone. The factory boards are crudely made, shockingly so. The cap replacement is the most cost effective way of making permanent fix.

Replaced all the caps with MKP types-the tweeter and mid caps with WIMAs (the little red rectangular units favored by guitarists) and the 68 uF woofer shunt with a Solen. The recapping really made no diff to the sound, nor did I expect it to. Recapped for long-term stability, once & done.

Esthetically, I've certainly seen better crossovers than the stock. One caution about replacing inductors. The DCR of the stock inductor should have been factored into the system design. I'd be astounded if Klipsch did not do that given the level of engineering talent (Keele, Gillum, Hunter, Delgado, etc) they've had over the years. Replacing stock inductors with "lower DCR" types may upset the system's alignment. Another reason I left my stock inductors in place.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

First thing first
How much money can you put into the crossovers? Replacing the caps should work for you if your not wanting to change the flavor of the Cornwall, if you want to do that, then get you a set of ALK or bob c crossovers and be done with it
Second thing
You need to check the mid and high drivers and make sure they are working, get a meter and compare speaker A with speaker B and see if they ohm out the same. If not you will need to either upgrade or replace the coils
You can spend as little as $60 or as much as $600. Your the only one who can make that call.


Dollar for dollar Klipsch has no equals
Name one other speaker company that can build a speaker and keep working like new after 45 plus years of service. Answer NO ONE !!!!!!

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Endo, there is nothing “wrong” with your Cornwall’s! 

 

You have simply heard the “truth” with your Belles and a man cannot unlearn the truth.

 

Compared to Belles or LaScalas with their folded horn bass bins and larger midrange, pretty much any direct radiating SINGLE woofer speaker is going to seem lifeless. ”Cornscalas” and the dual 12 and 15 inch woofer direct radiating speakers can sometimes pull it off with the right(larger) horn(s) on top, but if and when you sell your Belles to move to anything but Khorns or Jubes, you will lament their loss.

 

I have owned three pairs of LaScalas over the years. I kept the LaScala Industrial Splits (LSI’s)...

 

Each time I sold a pair of LaScalas, the story from the majority of interested buyers was the same: “I used to have a pair and wish I had never sold them!”

 

I kept one pair of the four pairs of Cornwall’s I have been graced with over the years, and guess what? It’s the pair with the B-3 crossover. They do have tractrix horns now instead of the stock exponential horns, but I guarantee if I could fit LaScalas or Belles, or Khorns (LOL!) in the master bedroom the Corns would be looking for a new room.

 

I “A/B’d” my modded Cornwalls and  Cornscalas vs. the LaScalas to my neighbours each time I had the chance, and their response was exactly the same as yours - meh!

 

As big as Cornwalls are, Belles are bigger. And bigger is better!

 

If I had to do it all over again, I would have never adulterated any of my Cornwalls, should have sold ‘em as is, and bought the pair of Khorns for $2500 that I waffled on for two weeks. 

 

But if you are bent on beating a dead horse, as I was, CT-120 tweeters and some nice capacitors or aftermarket crossovers would be a rewarding experiment that could be almost recouped upon resale. Restore speakers to original and sell upgrades separately (to me - LOL!)

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@geoff. ^ Thanks for the insights... you've shed some light on my ignorance.

 

Since posting, I read one of Claude's Super Cornwall posts (thank you @JohnJ @ClaudeJ1) where he describes the dual-phase-plug K55s on the Belle's as removing a 9k spike that otherwise overlaps with the tweeter. This explanation might account for some of the unexpected difference in treble between the two speakers. Just a thought. That spike would explain a lot.

 

At this point, I'm wondering if I over estimated the crossovers being the problem. Will go ahead with the caps-only; intending to keep the CWs original in other respects. Anyone have suggestions on who makes the best caps for this application? Is SonicCap among the better caps, or simply a good value?

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@geoff.

You are absolutely right about the Klipsch folded horn bass speakers. I was totally content with my year old F3s then I heard some barely used c1990 LS that were just out of my reach.

Things weren't right with my rig again until I got a 2.1 addition that I liked. Now I'm good again, for the time being.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, carlthess40 said:

First thing first
How much money can you put into the crossovers? Replacing the caps should work for you if your not wanting to change the flavor of the Cornwall, if you want to do that, then get you a set of ALK or bob c crossovers and be done with it
Second thing
You need to check the mid and high drivers and make sure they are working, get a meter and compare speaker A with speaker B and see if they ohm out the same. If not you will need to either upgrade or replace the coils
You can spend as little as $60 or as much as $600. Your the only one who can make that call.


Dollar for dollar Klipsch has no equals
Name one other speaker company that can build a speaker and keep working like new after 45 plus years of service. Answer NO ONE !!!!!!

Agreed.. Built to last a life time. Literally! 👍

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, geoff. said:

Endo, there is nothing “wrong” with your Cornwall’s! 

 

You have simply heard the “truth” with your Belles and a man cannot unlearn the truth.

 

Compared to Belles or LaScalas with their folded horn bass bins and larger midrange, pretty much any direct radiating SINGLE woofer speaker is going to seem lifeless. ”Cornscalas” and the dual 12 and 15 inch woofer direct radiating speakers can sometimes pull it off with the right(larger) horn(s) on top, but if and when you sell your Belles to move to anything but Khorns or Jubes, you will lament their loss.

 

I have owned three pairs of LaScalas over the years. I kept the LaScala Industrial Splits (LSI’s)...

 

Each time I sold a pair of LaScalas, the story from the majority of interested buyers was the same: “I used to have a pair and wish I had never sold them!”

 

I kept one pair of the four pairs of Cornwall’s I have been graced with over the years, and guess what? It’s the pair with the B-3 crossover. They do have tractrix horns now instead of the stock exponential horns, but I guarantee if I could fit LaScalas or Belles, or Khorns (LOL!) in the master bedroom the Corns would be looking for a new room.

 

I “A/B’d” my modded Cornwalls and  Cornscalas vs. the LaScalas to my neighbours each time I had the chance, and their response was exactly the same as yours - meh!

 

As big as Cornwalls are, Belles are bigger. And bigger is better!

 

If I had to do it all over again, I would have never adulterated any of my Cornwalls, should have sold ‘em as is, and bought the pair of Khorns for $2500 that I waffled on for two weeks. 

 

But if you are bent on beating a dead horse, as I was, CT-120 tweeters and some nice capacitors or aftermarket crossovers would be a rewarding experiment that could be almost recouped upon resale. Restore speakers to original and sell upgrades separately (to me - LOL!)

You are very wise indeed!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I replaced xo with Bobs in 81 corns and was really impressed. I switched back xo and could hear it right away. It surprised me how much and how easily it was to hear. I also switched to Bobs tweets and then back and preferred the k-77 in the corns a lot. Unfortunately I fear no upgrade will give your corns a sound like the bells. Other than maybe a cornscala upgrade (but that might not do it either idk). Bigger horns rule in PWK (klipsch) land... End of story. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While not likely to admit it, many around here have age induced hearing loss, tinnitus, wax build up, hearing damage from listening too loud, firearms, muscle cars, etc. They're quite easy to spot. 

 

35 year old capacitors are finished. You need to replace them.

 

The B3 uses a 5uF, a 2uF, and a 70uF. The 70uF can be an electrolytic. The 5 and 2 should be high quality film and foils, unless you like that sizzly quality in your highs, then go for the cheap metalized types. 

 

www.partsexpress.com

 

Look for Audiocap PPT Thetas. 

 

If the windings on the autotransformer or low pass coil can be moved on the core, replace them. 

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

If you need help doing the work. Message me and I’d be more the. Happy to help
I think I may even have some parts here
Still looking for a ton of my audio parts after moving into my new house just over a month ago


Dollar for dollar Klipsch has no equals
Name one other speaker company that can build a speaker and keep working like new after 45 plus years of service. Answer NO ONE !!!!!!

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well I did pack my stuff but a lot of the things have been packed for 2 or 3 years when we lived in a larger home , we moved into a codon until we found the right home for us to buy. So now I’m looking at boxes that I have no idea of what the hell was in that. Lol. Also I’m disabled and it takes me forever to do things, some of the simple task will lay me up in bed for days


Dollar for dollar Klipsch has no equals
Name one other speaker company that can build a speaker and keep working like new after 45 plus years of service. Answer NO ONE !!!!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would suggest upgrading the 2uf and 5uf capacitors to Jupiter VT capacitors. I replaced Sonicap capacitors with Jupiters in My Cornwall type B crossovers. The difference was awesome, smoother, more detail, way, way better. I will never listen to my Cornwalls with the Sonicaps again.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I say call Bob Crites get parts from him. But the corns will never keep up with the Bells like you want I dont think. The corns will go lower but not hit as hard, cant really compare the two to each other horn verses direct radiator. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/30/2019 at 8:15 PM, Endo said:

[Aside: Apologies in advance if this is a dead horse... If this is addressed somewhere else in the forum, please direct me and I'll remove the post (My searches were not effective... ) ]

 

I have 1983 Cornwalls with B3 crossovers. To my knowledge, all drivers and network components appear to be factory original. I've never had any complaints. When I bought them, these speakers were such an improvement over anything I'd had before that I never felt a need to pursue maintenance: I was very pleased with them–and quite frankly, did not want to mess with anything for fear of taking a step backwards (I was familiar with PWK's comments about 6 years and over 300 individual tests going into the first CW production model).

 

Anyway, I recently brought home some 1982 Belle's (came with newly installed Crites 'A' – not an 'AB' variant) and have been listening to the two pair of speakers alternately. I expected the main difference to be in the bass; with mid-range and tweeter somewhat comparable (different, perhaps–but, comparable)–but this is not so. I think the CW might need help.

 

My sense is that lots of members here have 'been there, done that' with problems like this, right? I need to do something, but can't afford to throw away money figuring out what may or may not work... I realize some practical trial-and-error is unavoidable, but where to begin:

    • 1. Replace caps only, then listen? or,

    • 2. Get the original boards diagnosed and fixed by a professional? or,

    • 3: Just buy new crossovers?

 

•–––> One last thing, if I begin by replacing caps only (doing it myself) and want to buy parts directly (eg. mouser) for the purpose of getting higher quality than what's available in kit form – what would I order?

 

I welcome suggestions. Thanks, guys.

I have a pair of barely used Crites B3's that I no longer need if your interested.   I'm in process of building Cornscala's.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...