ODS123 Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 Patricia Barber music is very well recorded w/ great dynamics. ..Sounds like she's right in the room with you. The problem is, her music is sooo hard to like that you'll want to show her the door almost immediately. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinkle toes Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 11 hours ago, glens said: Every instance that I've encountered of Zeppelin (digital) "remasters" rank in the lowest of low quality. 'Mothership' has got to be one of the worst discs I own. Excessive levels with compression and utterly horrid frequency balance. The capability of (even "lowly" CD) digital so greatly outshines that of LP that it's not even close. The specific implementation is the key. 'Twinkle toes', you should find the thread about "demastering" in the technical forum for a better understanding in general. Your ideas are not "sound" in this matter, from what you've stated here in this thread. Fare enough but it also seems some others arn't either and are slightly contradicting themselves to a certain extent or maybe misunderstanding my post, easy to do I'm not the greatest at spelling and grammar. TBH i feel this is the perfect thread as this what we are talking about, mastering quality/ test tracks. At the end of the day this boils down to what makes a bad recording bad and good recording good, you say the led zeppelin albums are bad, Ive stated a reason as to why i think this may be possible and my general understanding might not world class but i have enough to get me by. And this will get to why you can't use youtube to demo a system For example though the immigrant song its used in Thor Ragnarok and then you have the album version. The thor version is exactly where it should be with regards to mastering, they've obversely gone in and made adjustments and in creased the overall gain, go to the remastered version of the digital albam for example, though as stated doesn't sound bad just a lot lower in volume? as stated I've given my thoughts but no else has really answered my question other than saying digital through and through and analogue through and through and for me that doesn't really stand. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinkle toes Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 (edited) 12 hours ago, artto said: Sorry, but Led Zeppelin remasters are not as digital as it gets. Those are not digital recordings. The original masters are analog. 50 year old analog tape masters. I Think you may have misunderstood me (as i say easy to do with my poorly written rambles) i understand that the Zeplinlin tapes aren't/weren't digital and that's my point, The tapes would have been digitised and cleaned of noise in the remastering process, so now to be honest they're about as digital as it gets, so why have they not accounted for the gain in the remstereing/digitising process. would it of made the original recordings to noisy? There may not be an answer and its just one of those things and thats fine Edit i also understand they aren't theist sounding recording in general but im using it as an extreme example Edited June 13, 2019 by twinkle toes 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glens Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 I'll have to look it up - there's a website which catalogs the dynamic ranges of recordings. You can also get a utility for your computer to analyze digital audio and arrive a figures which match those of that database. It's subsiding somewhat, but during the 2000s there was a concerted effort, it seems, to do just what you seem to be espousing: increase the recorded signal to the max. To get it sounding even louder yet, they compress the dynamic range and usually shape the spectrum to favor the midrange/treble. One such example is (at least the version I have if there's more than one) Zeppelin's "Mothership" which is a compilation of "remastered" hits. It's almost unlistenable on decent-enough equipment. I bought a remaster of Lou Reed's "Rock 'n Roll Animal" (arguably one of the best ever "live" recordings) which included a couple more songs from the event which wouldn't have fit on a single LP. I had the LP (maybe still do) from the late '70s, and bought the CD sometime in the late '80s. The extra songs on the remaster are hardly worth the reduced sound quality compared to the early CD (which may well have been produced from the LP-era master tape). The disc isn't terrible until you hear the non-remastered version. One of the lowest-level-recorded CDs is (the early version of?) Dire Straights' "Brothers In Arms." I believe you would complain about the low level of the disc. But it has one of the highest scores (very high dynamic range) in that database! And it's an utterly pleasurable sonic experience when listened to, even if the equipment gain must be increased to play it loud. So I'd have to say that your contention, that a low (average) signal level on a digital recording is undesirable, is misinformed. There's nothing wrong with getting the hottest recording level possible so long as the content isn't compressed or unfavorably altered in other ways to accomplish the goal. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 3 hours ago, twinkle toes said: I Think you may have misunderstood me (as i say easy to do with my poorly written rambles) i understand that the Zeplinlin tapes aren't/weren't digital and that's my point, The tapes would have been digitised and cleaned of noise in the remastering process, so now to be honest they're about as digital as it gets, so why have they not accounted for the gain in the remstereing/digitising process. would it of made the original recordings to noisy? There may not be an answer and its just one of those things and thats fine Edit i also understand they aren't theist sounding recording in general but im using it as an extreme example " i understand that the Zeplinlin tapes aren't/weren't digital and that's my point, The tapes would have been digitised and cleaned of noise in the remastering process, so now to be honest they're about as digital as it gets" Wrong. They are analog recordings made from analog tape. The dynamic range of whatever analog tape recorders (and actual tape) they used on the original recording is the limitation of dynamic range. That is the difference between the loudest usable gain that could be recorded on that analog tape compared to the noise floor of the tape/tape recorder. And the dynamic range of that analog tape system used to record Led Zeppelin is no where near the dynamic range available on CD. "so why have they not accounted for the gain in the remstereing/digitising process. would it of made the original recordings to noisy?" Yes, it could be that the original recordings were too noisy. Digital Signal Processing can be a wonderful thing but like everything it has its own limitations. There is no free lunch in this. Taking away noise also takes away something else, or creates new artifacts in the process. When mastering digital recordings there is a process called “normalization”. Normalization allows the mastering engineer to bring the peak or RMS average recording level up to the absolute maximum level allowed by the digital system (in this case PCM/CD quality dynamic range). Early CD mastering (mid 80’s) did not have this capability that I know of. Therefore those CD will in general, probably not have as much gain as more recent “re-mastered” issues, which most likely have been Normalized. There isn’t any Normalization “standard”. It’s up to the mastering engineer’s discretion. They can max it out or they can back it off a bit for a little margin of safety. In the case of Led Zeppelin, a hugely popular band over a long span of time, there are many, many issues/reissues. If you really want to get a good idea of how many versions were released take a look at Discogs.com https://www.discogs.com/artist/34278-Led-Zeppelin On Discogs the first Led Zeppelin album shows 491 versions. Led Zeppelin II shows 565 versions. It’s anybody’s guess what releases were made from what masters or re-masters or copies of copies of masters, etc. And to make matters worse I’d be willing bet much of that documentation is missing, incomplete or wrong, so in general it will be very difficult to know what came from where and what was done or not done to it until you give it a good listen and decide for yourself whether or not it's up to your standards. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delicious2 Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 2 hours ago, artto said: On Discogs the first Led Zeppelin album shows 491 versions. Led Zeppelin II shows 565 versions. It’s anybody’s guess what releases were made from what masters or re-masters or copies of copies of masters, etc. And to make matters worse I’d be willing bet much of that documentation is missing, incomplete or wrong, so in general it will be very difficult to know what came from where and what was done or not done to it until you give it a good listen and decide for yourself whether or not it's up to your standards. An artist / group doesn't have to be hugely popular or have many release versions/masterings to have a variability of dynamic quality apparently. I was very surprised to look up a recent favorite for dynamic recording of real instruments - Gordon Goodwin's Big Phat Band - XXL. Its rating was very disappointing in http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=goodwin&album=xxl until I found my DVD-A version which has a hugely higher dynamic range rating. Now maybe some of this is rater variability but I have to get the CD version now just out of curiosity to see if the dynamics are really that different (crushed) on the CD vs DVD-A This Metallica mentioned earlier doesn't rate that good but maybe I'll get it too to hear for myself... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 https://www.amazon.com/Pirates-Caribbean-Stranger-Hans-Zimmer/dp/B004V6MWE6 also on spotify Hans Zimmer not quite John Willams but the closest I have seen. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiva Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 Plenty of music to click on, on this guy's site. I posted a youtube vid of his earlier. Don't know the bit rate of the link below though. https://audiophilemusic.io/portfolio/chesky-records-the-ultimate-demonstration-disc-1995/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 I have a huge net of different music I like. From Pink Floyd all the way to death metal like Cannibal Corpse (probably my 2nd favorite band next to floyd). In terms of best music for testing systems great movie scores are some of the best imho. They spend so much on these movies huge and don't then cheap out on money spent on the score/music part on a lot of them (I'm sure some do of course). I have no dollar compassion per say but some are just incredible. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 https://www.amazon.com/Clapton-Chronicles-Best-Eric/dp/B00001U03Q also on spotify 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 https://www.amazon.com/Lindsey-Stirling/dp/B00991TCOG also on spotify 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 https://www.amazon.com/Symphony-Of-Destruction-Remastered-2012/dp/B00A1G5VUC remastered version is incredible compared to the original They also remastered rust in peace in 2004 both these remastered versions are on spotify 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 Slayer south of heaven is also an album with incredible sound that no-one talks about. The kicks in this album beat your chest like a hammer. If you like metal this album from an audiophile standpoint is a work of art imo. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 https://www.amazon.com/Shangri-Mark-Knopfler/dp/B0002VKZL6 t9 the voice wow 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 https://www.amazon.com/Cannibal-Corpse-Gallery-Suicide-Winyl/dp/B07CPLY36Q Track 7 instrumental (for those that hate death metal singing but like heavy music) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 I know most of the stuff I have posted is unusual. I figured I would skip all the ones that pretty much anyone in this hobby knows about (like pink floyd the wall or of that like) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 https://www.amazon.com/Epic-Action-Adventure-Vol-ES022/dp/B005ZTUOYS t14 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 Vader "You will not take him from me!!!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted June 13, 2019 Share Posted June 13, 2019 For those using spotify (everything I posted is on there) I have also found that an optical toslink from my laptop to avr is incredibly better sounding then my spotify app on say a ps4. I don't pay for spotify (use to but haven't renewed in in awhile. You can still use the app and your account but you have to pause or change songs or you might get an audio ad between songs. A pain for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillyBob Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 On 6/12/2019 at 3:36 PM, artto said: Sorry, but Led Zeppelin remasters are not as digital as it gets. Those are not digital recordings. The original masters are analog. 50 year old analog tape masters. I believe [hedging here] TalkingHeads "Stop Making Sense" is all digital Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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