jason str Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 4 minutes ago, Heritage_Head said: Ok... I had no idea what a bifurcated horn was. Been reading about them a bit after you mentioned it. So because it comes together its not a bifurcated horn. Wonder why he gave info on a bifurcated horn. Where are they normally used? Bifurcated just means split into two, the La Scala bass bin splits but returns as one exit so probably not considered bifurcated. Where are they normally used ? Anyplace music is needed i would say. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 2 minutes ago, jason str said: Bifurcated just means split into two, the La Scala bass bin splits but returns as one exit so probably not considered bifurcated. Where are they normally used ? Anyplace music is needed i would say. Ha! 👍 How many ft back would you say a person would need to be away from a La Scala for bass sound waves reach full size? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 8 minutes ago, Heritage_Head said: Ha! 👍 How many ft back would you say a person would need to be away from a La Scala for bass sound waves reach full size? Distance should not matter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glens Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 52 minutes ago, jason str said: Bifurcated just means split into two, the La Scala bass bin splits but returns as one exit so probably not considered bifurcated. Once the split is made it doesn't matter whether there remains two final openings or just one. The pathway through which the produced sound travels has been bifurcated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakeydeal Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 2 hours ago, jason str said: Distance should not matter. But it will. Room nodes will reinforce or cancel low frequencies. So the listening position within the room is critical for the best bass response. This will remain true for any loudspeaker. Shakey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 19 hours ago, jason str said: The folds in the horn path act as a low pass filter lowering distortion as well witch is not possible in DR type designs. Tapped horn types do not benefit in this regard as the drivers are exposed. Would "naked 1/4 wave horns" be a more accurate term rather than "tapped horns." Boy could we ever make some human reproductive entertainment analogies with those words, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 15 hours ago, Shakeydeal said: But it will. Room nodes will reinforce or cancel low frequencies. So the listening position within the room is critical for the best bass response. This will remain true for any loudspeaker. Shakey This is why I sit right smack in the center of my room. Modeling and measuring has it proven to be the best place in many rooms, unless you want to sit in a peak, which can help some subwoofers out..............Acoustic Modal EQ rather than PEQ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 18 hours ago, jason str said: Bifurcated just means split into two, the La Scala bass bin splits but returns as one exit so probably not considered bifurcated. Where are they normally used ? Anyplace music is needed i would say. All bifurcated horns have are reunited when the frequency gets low enough. Khorn, Jubilee, MWM, Super MWM, etc. all do it. The LaScala reunites at a higher frequency is all, but it's also the shortest of the bass/midbass folded, bifurcated horns (redundant terms, I know). Not all folded horns are bifurcated (my Quarter Pie is a good example, as are the Tuba HT horns, F-20, etc.), but ALL bifurcated horns are inherently folded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 Lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 18 hours ago, Heritage_Head said: Ha! 👍 How many ft back would you say a person would need to be away from a La Scala for bass sound waves reach full size? I'm not sure this question is realized by sound physics. So I vote for Zero Feet at the mouth. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 6 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said: This is why I sit right smack in the center of my room. Modeling and measuring has it proven to be the best place in many rooms, unless you want to sit in a peak, which can help some subwoofers out..............Acoustic Modal EQ rather than PEQ? You know Claud so-called experts will say middle of the room is the worst possible spot! I actually like it too. I have found having a wall right behind me to be less desirable. But bass does suffer a bit in the middle with nulls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 4 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said: I'm not sure this question is realized by sound physics. So I vote for Zero Feet at the mouth. The article I read (I linked) that I was asking Jason about. Talked about how it takes 8 feet to reach its full wave size. Was wondering if the la Scalas had a similar issue or what might the distance be as a minimum. Is where that came from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 6 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said: I'm not sure this question is realized by sound physics. So I vote for Zero Feet at the mouth. 140 Hz is roughly 8" ling the mouth of a LaScala is just under 2" square. figure it is a 1/4 wave horn so at 140 Hz and above waves come out of the mouth at their full size (at the mouth) or am I missing something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 18 hours ago, glens said: Once the split is made it doesn't matter whether there remains two final openings or just one. The pathway through which the produced sound travels has been bifurcated. People worry about bifurcation (split opening at the mouth like a Jubilee or K-horn and not a La Scala), because it can cause a lobing problem when you look at output as a function of angle off axis (polars). Your comment misses that point. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glens Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 Didn't miss it at all because it wasn't addressed in the post I'd replied to, and didn't have the time or desire to peck it out on the phone "keyboard". Do you suppose lobing of no kind takes place merely because two pathways are recombined at the mouth as opposed to somewhere (well or little) outside it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 14 minutes ago, glens said: Didn't miss it at all because it wasn't addressed in the post I'd replied to, and didn't have the time or desire to peck it out on the phone "keyboard". Do you suppose lobing of no kind takes place merely because two pathways are recombined at the mouth as opposed to somewhere (well or little) outside it? I will give you the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps you are referring to the differing path lengths that occur when a horn is "folded". Yes, those do matter and when they are very different the cabinet can then act as a low pass filter. Is this what you mean by lobing in the the two pathways? This issue of dispersion with a bifurcated horn is real and does have consequences. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 12 minutes ago, glens said: Didn't miss it at all because it wasn't addressed in the post I'd replied to, and didn't have the time or desire to peck it out on the phone "keyboard". Do you suppose lobing of no kind takes place merely because two pathways are recombined at the mouth as opposed to somewhere (well or little) outside it? if folks are really concerned about bifurcation then they can always opt to eliminate it by building a horn that does not have it as part of its design. The University Classic and Dean are both highly respected still today (though larger than a LaScala) here is another option not much larger than a LaScala but with more to offer. I will also attach a single driver version of this horn for those who want something smaller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 1 hour ago, Heritage_Head said: You know Claud so-called experts will say middle of the room is the worst possible spot! I actually like it too. I have found having a wall right behind me to be less desirable. But bass does suffer a bit in the middle with nulls. I used REW to model my room and with bass EQ, I get the best bass I've ever had, since, modal acoustics are pretty flat with what I have. Screw the "experts" I have RESULTS! Any fellow Klipschead is free to contact me for a listening session. If will only cost you a six pack of craft beer, like all others who have passed through my listening room. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 7 minutes ago, moray james said: If folks are really concerned about bifurcation then they can always opt to eliminate it by building a horn that does not have it as part of its design. The University Classic and Dean are both highly respected still today (though larger than a LaScala) here is another option not much larger than a LaScala but with more to offer. I will also attach a single driver version of this horn for those who want something smaller. I avoided bifurcation and 1/2 of a fold with my Quarter Pie Horn design. But it had a bit of angular asymmetry which could be compensated for at the sweet spot. Only straight axis horns avoid these issues, but they are not practical, unless you fire it through a floor with a large mouth reflector, with the apex of the throat in a tall basement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glens Posted June 28, 2019 Share Posted June 28, 2019 19 hours ago, Heritage_Head said: How many ft back would you say a person would need to be away from a La Scala for bass sound waves reach full size? It's really immaterial since your ear (or a microphone, etc.) tracks the cyclic pressure differentials that impinge upon it and once a fully-grown wave (the point at which it starts beaming) exceeds the size of the "receiving element", the receiver will never know or care. Unless the wave disperses enough to cause multiple receptions (via reflections) of any given wave, which can cause cancellation/augmentation depending on the time differences, among other sonic anomalies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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