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Jvitti1970

Integrating a K-510(kpt-904HF) with a vintage Lscala bass bin

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tossing around some ideas here. how well do you guys think this horn and driver would integrate with the Lascala bass bin?

what would be the best way to set it up? DSP? Amplification.?  or would it just be better to buy a pair of 396's to experience this driver and horn?

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Funny, I just posted something about building a horn loaded bass bin so I could play with different horn combinations for the mids/highs.  There are a ton of people that have or have had the 510's in various configurations that I'm certain will chime in, but I just have them in the 396's and haven't pulled them out to test until I have a horn bass section.  I will be following this closely.  If you only lived in Ohio, we could answer a few of our questions collectively. 

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I'm curious to know whether it will be that much of an improvement over the Lascala's highs and mids

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Different type of bass, dependent on how far you are from the speaker and room, much better mids dependent on the eq that the k-400/401. 

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17 hours ago, Jvitti1970 said:

I'm curious to know whether it will be that much of an improvement over the Lascala's highs and mids

 

My opinion in a word:  Yes

 

When Roy initially came up with it, he designed it for DSP use.  I don't know if he himself designed a passive or if someone else came up with one (Like Bob Crites)

 

Here are the settings used for the EV-DX38 and the 510 when mated with the K69 (the initial driver they used)  Now that they use some other drivers, this might be useless.  It WILL however, show you the PEQ for the bass bin that will help tame the sidewalls from resonating (if you're using the original LaScala and not the II's)

 

If you took as high of quality Transistor radio that you could find....  listened to it....  then, compared the LaScala (stock) to it at the same (transistor radio) volume, the LaScala wouldn't be any louder since you've matched the output BUT, it will sound much LARGER.

 

That is what you'll experience with the 510 and if you have the space, the 402.  Yeah, they'll play louder without breaking up like the stock horns/drivers but aside from that, they'll sound much larger.

JubeScala II.JPG

DX-38 settings for LaScala (1 or 2) LF with K510 & K69.pdf

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Side note, that's not my speaker.  Someone made it, posted the picture and I stole a copy of it.

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18 hours ago, Jvitti1970 said:

or would it just be better to buy a pair of 396's to experience this driver and horn?

 

Do you already have the LaScalas??

 

You might consider the 402 on top of them if you do.

 

 

2jubscala.jpg

1.jpg

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20 minutes ago, Coytee said:

Side note, that's not my speaker.  Someone made it, posted the picture and I stole a copy of it.

 

Nice disclaimer.  I don't care for the seafoam carpet, either :-)

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On 6/15/2019 at 2:57 PM, Jvitti1970 said:

think this horn and driver would integrate with the Lascala bass bin

Sorry, no clue :(  But ... tried to integrate 510/691 horns with a set of Forte's via DSP ... never succeeded ... the horns are just in a different league and blew the Forte's away :(  Think you might need "more" than the LS bass bins.  I have another set of 510's with the 904 bass bins  (dual 15" woofers) - awesome sound.

Cheers, Emile

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LSs xo to bass is 400hz the 904 is 800hz. I know peps have talked about this but running the 904hf 400-20k idk

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Not sure how high you can go with the LSs bass. Ive seen a few peps with the 510 horn on top of the ls. Not sure if they used part of the mid of the ls or went all 2 way. 

 

The 396 is only good down to 65hz and xo at 1k to the 510. 

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I’ve had great luck crossing over the 510/heresy combo at 600hz. The heresy doesn’t have a problem keeping up with good peq using rew and the xilica. I think it’s important that you have good supporting gear to pull it off. 

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17 minutes ago, AHall said:

I’ve had great luck crossing over the 510/heresy combo at 600hz. The heresy doesn’t have a problem keeping up with good peq using rew and the xilica. I think it’s important that you have good supporting gear to pull it off. 

Idk how much harder 600-400 is. Or for that matter 800-600. The driver that comes with the 510 horn is suggested to xo at 800. No idea how much lower it will go then the suggested number. Smarter people on here can answer this. But with out an active xo and some serious no what your doing my guess 400 is to low. But guess is all it is. 

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1 hour ago, Heritage_Head said:

Idk how much harder 600-400 is. Or for that matter 800-600. The driver that comes with the 510 horn is suggested to xo at 800. No idea how much lower it will go then the suggested number. Smarter people on here can answer this. But with out an active xo and some serious no what your doing my guess 400 is to low. But guess is all it is. 

 

From what I’ve read the k510 will perform down to around 500hz. It will not go low enough to be a viable option on a khorn bass bin which would need 400-450hz crossover. Something about collapsing polars etc. I haven’t quite grasped the meaning of all that. You would need someone like Roy or Chris to step in to give the science behind it. 

 

Regarding the driver I believe the horn can extended the low and high freq capabilities. I base that on my minimal experience with jubilees. Neither k691 or radian 950 drivers that I have tried are rated for 450-20khz, but they perform it when attached to the k402. 

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K1000 is a horn with a 1KHz resonance, K700 is a horn with a resonance of 700Hz, K600 ha a resonance at 600Hz, K400 at 400 Hz and so on, so it seems safe to assume a K510 has a resonance of 510Hz. K700 typically used in the range of 750 Hz to 850Hz in Heresy and HIP and most all of you here know what that sounds like. You can play a horn down close to its resonance but it can no longer hold its polar control down there. The good rule of thumb is to cross a horn about an octave above its resonance and a standard minimum rule is no lower than 1/2 an octave above its resonance. Khorn is starting to get into the soup at about 325Hz and that is why it is used in a three way system and why the Jubilee was designed which has a wider mid frequency response range than the Khorn does and that is what allows you to cross to a domestically acceptable sized mid horn to use the Jub in a two way system (a Khorn would require a 3' or larger diamretre horn to be used as a two way system and that would then suffer top end response). I think this is a reasonable explanation of these horns but if I am not 100% correct then perhaps someone with a better understanding of horn design would make the necessary corrections?

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9 minutes ago, moray james said:

K1000 is a horn with a 1KHz resonance, K700 is a horn with a resonance of 700Hz, K600 ha a resonance at 600Hz, K400 at 400 Hz and so on, so it seems safe to assume a K510 has a resonance of 510Hz. K700 typically used in the range of 750 Hz to 850Hz in Heresy and HIP and most all of you here know what that sounds like. You can play a horn down close to its resonance but it can no longer hold its polar control down there. The good rule of thumb is to cross a horn about an octave above its resonance and a standard minimum rule is no lower than 1/2 an octave above its resonance. Khorn is starting to get into the soup at about 325Hz and that is why it is used in a three way system and why the Jubilee was designed which has a wider mid frequency response range than the Khorn does and that is what allows you to cross to a domestically acceptable sized mid horn to use the Jub in a two way system (a Khorn would require a 3' or larger diamretre horn to be used as a two way system and that would then suffer top end response). I think this is a reasonable explanation of these horns but if I am not 100% correct then perhaps someone with a better understanding of horn design would make the necessary corrections?

Cool... One of the smart people I spoke of cleared that up. Thanks Moray 👍

i-am-not-worthy-of-your-awesomeness.jpg

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The La Scala combined with the 510 or 402 horn (and driver) is called a JubScala, since it’s a La Scala with a Jubilee tweeter.  There are quite a few of these combos operating happily.  I started with adding the 510s to my early  La Scalas in 2008, then in 2013 I upgraded to La Scala IIs, then in 2017, the 510 horns were replaced with 402 horns.  

 

This means that my current setup is called a 402 JubScala II.  From the first upgrade on, the sound was greatly improved, and each subsequent upgrade improved them even more.  The HF section and crossover section of the LS is disconnected and the speaker goes from 3-way with passive crossover to 2-way bi-amped with active electronic crossover.  The sound is much better, and eliminating one crossover point eliminates one phase transition, which is a good thing.  As well, the active crossover makes it easy to time-align the woofer and tweeter, which also improves the sound.

 

You don’t have to be an audio expert to do the conversion, because there’s no guesswork involved.  Following a suggestion by Coytee, Roy  Delgado, Klipsch’s head engineer, worked it all out, and provided the settings for certain electronic processors that are used as active crossovers.  You need the 510 or 402 horns and drivers, a pair of matching (to make level balancing easy, but you can use a smaller treble amp) power amplifiers (and don’t waste your money on cheap amps.  This is a highly resolving system, and any amplifier noise will be clearly audible, along with any other faults upstream of the speakers.  Get some good and quiet amps.), the electronic processor (EV Dx38, EV DC One, Yamaha 2060, or the latest, the Xilica unit).

 

If you have a pair of La Scalas already, then you’re all set, but it will be expensive, likely several thousand dollars, even if you get most of the parts used.  If you don’t have a pair of Scalas, you might as well just buy a pair of Jubilees.  The total cost will be close, but you’ll have the full deal, including the excellent Jubilee bass sections, plus they’ll be new speakers with a warranty.

 

Oh, and the crossover point is around 480 Hz.

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