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K402's arrived.......


Ziggurat

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14 hours ago, Chris A said:

I could be wrong since I'm working from memory and second-hand information, but I believe the K-691/K-69-A/K-69 drivers are/were lower cost for home duty based on the fact that the power output demands are much lower (on average) than cinema duty. 

 

The K-1132 is the driver that Roy took credit for modifying the phase plug to get extended response for cinema duty for their two-way behind-the-screen cinema loudspeakers.  In fact, I don't know where the original driver design of the K-1132/K-1133 came from.  They don't appear to be modified EV DH1As (as I would have guessed)--looking at the driver's back enclosure housing form. 

 

Chris

 

 

I have had a chance to hear the older 1132's and their phase plugs and also hear some 1132's I had reworked with new current production phase plugs and I have no idea what Roy did but there is a clear improvement. This was done on the 402's + S-MWM's back to back and the new ones stay.

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Interesting discussion. I have sent a message through to Roy asking for his comment as to whether or not I should worry about swapping the drivers out. 

 

I have a source for Faital HF200 drivers if need be, which Bob Crites and others speak highly of.  These would be an additional cost - money that could be spent elsewhere - but if I am seriously behind the 8-ball somehow with the 1132's it might be worth doing.

 

For what it is worth, right at this minute, the 1132's are a huge improvement on the Altec drivers, and are becoming less 'peaky' as break-in continues.  I started off by having to dial them back quite a way on the L-Pads, but noticed last night they had mellowed quite a bit, and that I could bring the HF L-Pad back up a few degrees.

 

I had never expected that the 402's would sound so good running as a plug-in replacement for the Altec gear off a stock crossover network. This was only ever intended as a bit of fun, and to be able to have a preliminary listen.  As it has turned out however, the sonic signature and presentation of the 402/1132 combo are such that I have experienced a VAST improvement in my listening experience. It amazes me that there is so much synergy happening, with zero input from me (other than L-Pad tweaks).

 

I wonder how much more the active setup with horn bass will bring? Exciting stuff.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Ziggurat
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On 7/2/2019 at 3:53 PM, Ziggurat said:

 

 

If someone has a pair of of TAD4002's or K691's they want to send to NZ for me, I will gladly offer a full report on the comparison 🙂

 

 

 

I have a pair of K691 drivers, NEW IN BOX...if you are interested !

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19 hours ago, Ziggurat said:

Interesting discussion. I have sent a message through to Roy asking for his comment as to whether or not I should worry about swapping the drivers out. 

 

I have a source for Faital HF200 drivers if need be, which Bob Crites and others speak highly of.  These would be an additional cost - money that could be spent elsewhere - but if I am seriously behind the 8-ball somehow with the 1132's it might be worth doing.

 

For what it is worth, right at this minute, the 1132's are a huge improvement on the Altec drivers, and are becoming less 'peaky' as break-in continues.  I started off by having to dial them back quite a way on the L-Pads, but noticed last night they had mellowed quite a bit, and that I could bring the HF L-Pad back up a few degrees.

 

I had never expected that the 402's would sound so good running as a plug-in replacement for the Altec gear off a stock crossover network. This was only ever intended as a bit of fun, and to be able to have a preliminary listen.  As it has turned out however, the sonic signature and presentation of the 402/1132 combo are such that I have experienced a VAST improvement in my listening experience. It amazes me that there is so much synergy happening, with zero input from me (other than L-Pad tweaks).

 

I wonder how much more the active setup with horn bass will bring? Exciting stuff.

 

 

 

 

I would listen to Roy but not so much the other commenters.  Don't let people who have not heard this combination sway you. What do your ears tell you? I know what mine tell me. The active will bring another whole level to the table so there is improvement yet to come. The active will also allow you to balance output precisely and this matters. I have two Crown xli800 amps and one needs gain turned up to be even with the other. It's your money to spend but if it were me I would be in no hurry to change things and in fact I am not interested in even looking further. The sound quality reaches a certain level and I am satisfied.

  I am curious though as to why you seem intent on switching your drivers. What precisely do you think you will gain?

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4 hours ago, Dave A said:

I am curious though as to why you seem intent on switching your drivers. What precisely do you think you will gain?

 

I'm not intent on switching my drivers at all, in fact, I would rather not. Because I do not have a basis for comparison, I have asked Roy (others have offered their opinions) if I am in some way disadvantaged by having the 1132's in my setting. If not, great.

 

What exactly would I stand to gain? No idea. The only thing I can conclusively state is that everyone I have read about prefers TAD drivers to other comers, with comments that hover around 'more smooth and natural'.  So there must be something in swapping out. 

 

As you point out, the next leap will be into active crossover territory, then to a horn bass bin. I have absolutely no doubt that these moves will be 'endgame' for me. Even if I had to stop right now, I'd say I have a sound that most people would not have experienced, and I'm pretty damn happy.  

 

The Altec 19's, by virtue of being classics, deserve to be returned to their glory. Plus I now have a La Scala(ish) speaker that needs a birthday. I hope to focus future energy on these projects rather than the 'A' system.

 

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I've never heard the 1132's (I don't think) so this is regarding the K69 'vs' TAD.

 

The K69 driver gets you 90% of the way there, perhaps 95%.  Swapping to the TAD IS a noticable difference but it's not cheap.  One has to decide is it worth that last 5-10% difference and spend say, $2,500 USD for a pair....  or, is that money better spent for good room treatments?

 

I'd probably lean to the room treatments.

 

Back to the 1132, I'm not really familiar with it from a technical point of view...  so to draw an analogy...

 

Could it be akin to dropping a Ford 427 FE with dual 4bbls carbs into a Toyota Camry when the stock 4 cylinder engine will do just fine?

 

I'm wondering if it's simply a heavier driver, capable of more input/output (which you will NEVER need in the home) so Roy simply went with the smaller K69 driver to make the net purchase cost of someone wanting to buy Jubilee's more affordable???

 

Point being, if you will never use the full ability of the K69 (and you WON'T while still being in the same room with them) then what benefit is a more capable, more expensive driver going to do for you?  You simply have more cash sitting on the speaker that you will never utilize in a home environment.

 

(don't know the above, tis what I'm wondering)

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Ziggurat said:

everyone I have read about prefers TAD drivers to other comers

That "everyone" is an exceedingly small group you will find. I bet on this forum the total number as a guess is less than 20.

 

1 hour ago, Coytee said:

I'm wondering if it's simply a heavier driver, capable of more input/output (which you will NEVER need in the home) so Roy simply went with the smaller K69 driver to make the net purchase cost of someone wanting to buy Jubilee's more affordable???

Probably true but Roy has also been on the forum to mention that pro gear was designed with more headroom. The effortless larger presence of superb output I have found as I moved up the pro food chain was remarkable. I would take a pro driver over home owner any day. Speaking of which weren't all those TAD's also pro oriented?

 

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On 7/3/2019 at 12:51 PM, Ziggurat said:

have a source for Faital HF200 drivers if need be, which Bob Crites and others speak highly of.  These would be an additional cost - money that could be spent elsewhere - but if I am seriously behind the 8-ball somehow with the 1132's it might be worth doing

You are not seriously behind the 8 ball.  90 to 95 percent of the improvement you are hearing is the horn itself.  People have put that horn on the top of many, many different cabinets including, Khorns, La Scalas, WMW bass bins, home brew bass bins of every sort imaginable,  and they all have reported what your initial impressions have been.  From there they got a means to to have way reliably measure the in room performance and got suggestions on time alignment, eq settings, etc. on here and they were even happier still.  

 

I wouldn't touch a thing until you get your active crossover and can get some folks here some measurements.

 

You are dealing with an unknown with those cabinets right now.  In addition, you are dealing with unknown variables (dips and peaks) of the 1132 which you can address with settings on your active XO.

 

Most people's reference point on here is K69/691 on a Klipsch horn loaded bass bin such as the Jube bass or WMW, or DR Pro-cinema bass bin. You have two unknown variables, the bass bin and the driver.

 

If you can get that to where it is really capable of being by ear, you are in the wrong profession.

 

Even Roy, with all of his experience,  measures twice and cuts, strike cuts, adjusts once.  He uses AES pink noise, to tweak, and when he is 98 percent there he starts to listen to his test tracks.

 

It took him about 2 or 3 hours to set up a 402 on top of an LS bass bin the first time with an anechoic chamber and all the lab equipment at his disposal.  He was only changing one variable with that.

 

It may be that the K691 is a better fit for what you are ultimately trying to do, but you simply won't know until you get some of these guys some measurements.

 

If the shipping isn't cost prohibitive (and VAT, customs, etc) to get someone to loan you a pair of K691s that would be optimal when you are able to test.

 

Travis

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25 minutes ago, Dave A said:

That "everyone" is an exceedingly small group you will find. I bet on this forum the total number as a guess is less than 20.

 

Probably true but Roy has also been on the forum to mention that pro gear was designed with more headroom. The effortless larger presence of superb output I have found as I moved up the pro food chain was remarkable. I would take a pro driver over home owner any day. Speaking of which weren't all those TAD's also pro oriented?

 

He didn't choose the K69, or offer the TADs, because of their output. He chose them because of where he could cross them over with the Jubilee bass bin, what their inherent dips and peaks were, impedance, and PHASE, plus about 15 other factors that I couldn't even begin to understand.   

 

You would have to know all of those factors about the 1132 and the K691 to begin to even guess why he went with one over the other.

 

I can probably tell pretty quick if someone can tell me what pro-cinema combo comes in 2 way, with a 402/1132 combo on top.  They all come with recommended active settings.

 

Travis

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Thanks for all the input here.

 

@Dave A re TADS.  Yes it is a small number of people here, but elsewhere it is easy to find praise for the TAD drivers.  Anyhow,  I was only bringing it up to highlight that there appears to be a preference when people have had the opportunity to compare, which I have not.

 

I am not going to beat on about swapping drivers further - at least not until I have heard from the horse's mouth which direction to take.

 

Thanks all

 

 

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3 hours ago, Dave A said:

Probably true but Roy has also been on the forum to mention that pro gear was designed with more headroom. The effortless larger presence of superb output I have found as I moved up the pro food chain was remarkable. I would take a pro driver over home owner any day. Speaking of which weren't all those TAD's also pro oriented?

 

 

I'm sure you know this but the 1132, 1133, K69, K691 are all 'pro' drivers....  I've read about the TAD's being used in a "pro"/cinema type setting.  

 

@Dave A...  I have a single TAD that you could borrow/try out if you'd like.

 

TAD on one speaker, 1132 on the other. Could be a fun shootout for yourself (until you heard them side by side!!)  Then the frustration begins on finding a nice pair with intact BE diaphragms.

 

Gauntlet has been dropped!

 

:emotion-51:

 

 

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7 hours ago, dwilawyer said:

He didn't choose the K69, or offer the TADs, because of their output. He chose them because of where he could cross them over with the Jubilee bass bin, what their inherent dips and peaks were, impedance, and PHASE, plus about 15 other factors that I couldn't even begin to understand.   

 

You would have to know all of those factors about the 1132 and the K691 to begin to even guess why he went with one over the other.

 

I can probably tell pretty quick if someone can tell me what pro-cinema combo comes in 2 way, with a 402/1132 combo on top.  They all come with recommended active settings.

 

Travis

I was referring to Roy's comments regarding pro in general in another thread and not specific drivers or why he chose them. I assume he does quite a lot of testing for every choice and then has to get them by the bean counters.

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4 hours ago, Coytee said:

 

 

I'm sure you know this but the 1132, 1133, K69, K691 are all 'pro' drivers....  I've read about the TAD's being used in a "pro"/cinema type setting.  

 

@Dave A...  I have a single TAD that you could borrow/try out if you'd like.

 

TAD on one speaker, 1132 on the other. Could be a fun shootout for yourself (until you heard them side by side!!)  Then the frustration begins on finding a nice pair with intact BE diaphragms.

 

Gauntlet has been dropped!

 

:emotion-51:

 

 

Yeppers you are right they are all pro. I thought the TAD's were all pro drivers?

  Well when you donate yours to the cause I will only have to find one more donor right:laugh:

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Ziggurat, although that crossover has a modicum of frequency-shaping ability, you may consider a few dollars for the parts in parallel with the HF driver in the drawings shown in

While I realize the drivers are different, I believe those network elements are primarily for shaping the output of the horn.

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13 minutes ago, glens said:

Ziggurat, although that crossover has a modicum of frequency-shaping ability, you may consider a few dollars for the parts in parallel with the HF driver in the drawings shown in

While I realize the drivers are different, I believe those network elements are primarily for shaping the output of the horn.

 

Thanks glens. With my active xos on the way, I won't be doing anything to the passive network for now, but I appreciate you sharing.

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7 hours ago, Dave A said:

I assume he does quite a lot of testing for every choice and then has to get them by the bean counters.

 

I always thought he sat back in his office, feet on his desk, eating bon-bons while dreaming of having some blueberries & bbq ribs...

 

Perhaps he does work an hour or two??

 

:emotion-14:

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14 hours ago, Zim. said:

KPT-942-M.....sounds damn fine too.  

Yes they do!!!!!!

 

So with the 2" 1132 they are recommending:

 

KPT-402-HF HIGHPASS CROSSOVER 600 Hz Linkwitz Riley 24 dB PEQ1 1.08 kHz Q: 1 Gain: -3 dB PEQ2 2.4 kHz Q: 4 Gain: -7 dB PEQ3 7.4 kHz Q: 4 Gain: +3 dB PEQ4 15.2 kHz Q: 2 Gain: +3 dB HF DELAY 0 ms OUTPUT GAIN 0 dB

 

KPT-904-LF LOWPASS CROSSOVER 500 Hz Linkwitz Riley 24 dB PEQ1 270 Hz Q: 2.2 Gain: +2 dB PEQ2 620 Hz Q: 5.5 Gain: -3 dB LF DELAY 0.271 ms OUTPUT GAIN 0 dB

 

They are getting out to 18K +/- 3 db, and 19K -10db 

 

On a Jube bass pin you have to cross over almost a full octive below that at something like 400/450 if I remember right.  I believe some were using a 500 crossover point.

 

And then on the K-691, no real data to extrapolate from, as the K-396 appears to be only product using the K-691 and there is no data on crossover points, etc.  

 

@Chris A might be able to compare those PQ settings as to the numerous ones he has seen from helping people set up K-691 systems to see if there is anything distinguishable.  

 

The K-691 and the K-1132 both appear to be 8 ohm nominal.  The K-691 is 3" diaphragm.

 

Some of the issue were addressed in this thread RE: the evolution of the K-69, K-69-A, and the K-691

 

.A similar issue also came up about ten years ago when someone had mismatched1132 drivers.  @Coytee must have forgotten that as keeper of the official Jubilee list that someone got 1132s with their Jubes, were sent K-69s (unknown which version), did a comparison, and for him he prefered the 1132 over the "K69".  However, as previously pointed out, the K691 is generally regarded as a "better" driver than the K-69-A.

 

That thread is here:

 

 

 

Depending on what happens with NZ GST and import duties on an "exchange", and shipping, it may not be worth the hassle of an exchange, especially if the OP has a way to also compare the Faital drivers.  

 

Does anyone know what the LF crossover point is on the speakers the OP currently has?

 

Travis

 

 

 

 

 

 

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