Jump to content

I have La Scalas... Which DIY sub will make my b(***) sound big??


Bullsh*t

Recommended Posts

54 minutes ago, MookieStl said:

[mention=63802]codewritinfool[/mention] keeps threatening to bring his over for me to hear, but as of yet.........

 


Lol I can’t haul the thing! You’re welcome to come get it anytime you want, though!  (I should've just built it with wheels and a trailer hitch).

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Thaddeus Smith said:

 

I don't disagree with any of this. OP threw out an idea which I've seen repeated many times in audiophile discussions, indicating that some subs are suitable for music and others are not as if there's a "pure" subwoofer for strictly music.

Nope.  An acurate sub is an accurate sub.  It doesn't know if it's reproducing a bass guitar or thunder.  It should do both equally well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just checked back in and appreciate all the replies; am still at work so will have to wait until this PM to jump back in... but I definitely have a few more thoughts... and questions!

In the meantime - how does one customize your icon on this forum?  And indicate geographic location, etc?  I've scrolled through all the "account settings" pages but haven't found it yet...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, finally settled in for the evening after a long work week... Now I can focus on what's actually important:  subwoofers!

 

But first, regarding the controversial word I used in my initial post in reference to subs, "MUSICALITY"....

 

I was only trying to emphasize how I intend to use whatever sub I wind up building.. that is, what I want/need it to DO.  Nothing more, or less.  Perhaps I should have left that word out... certainly didn't mean to stir the pot.  I'm still learning the vocabulary about all this stuff.  But surely I'm not out of line to use such adjectives as "tight" or "accurate" or "fast" when referring to the sound and performance of a subwoofer?  And I've noticed those words most commonly being used to describe the sonic properties of a driver mounted in a sealed box vs. other types of enclosures. 

 

The same driver mounted into a (comparatively) massive folded-horn type of enclosure WILL have different sonic characteristics... not right or wrong, just different.  Truth be told, the number of times I'll actually get to crank up the volume on my system to, let's say, the average used in a movie theater - and then leave it up there while I sit and enjoy a favorite album start to finish - will be few and far between (this is sometimes referred to as "Qw" or "wife coefficient").

 

I'm trying to say that maybe sometimes less is more... more ideal for a given situation... and that smaller can still be sufficient

 

Now, I'm sure that there are some really good folded horn designs out there that really do achieve the best of both worlds:  still sound tight, accurate, & fast - but don't necessarily take up a huge amount of space.  That's what I'm here to learn about.

 

But one can easily go overboard with a sub, no?  Is bigger necessarily always better?  I have heard some BIG subs in the past that were most certainly LOUD, and literally shook the entire room/rattled windows/etc... but to me, they didn't sound "musical"... (oops, I said it again... I guess I just don't know of a better word...).  Regardless of my choice of words, I know what I mean.  I've heard LOUD subs- but at the same time they sounded mushy/muddled.  They basically sounded like crap. 

 

Subs CAN be disproportionately large, even to the point of being humorous... sort of like the time I was with my brother-in-law at the lake on his nice Rinker, and he commented as a 40' Scarab roared by, "there goes another poor guy showing off his penis extension." 

 

(Sorry if I offended any cigarette boat owners out there... I personally think they're pretty awesome to watch! 😎)

 

 

 

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, I decided to go for it after talking to the guy I referenced in my original post, as well an email exchange between myself and a tech support at Parts Express...

 

Regarding the HO vs HF question, both recommended the HO version for installation into a smaller sealed box. 

 

So, I ordered the Dayton RSS390-HO and Cabinet bundle.  For only $267.  Not too bad, I don't think.

 

Now, in terms of the amp, I ultimately decided to go with the Dayton SPA250-DSP.  I know, I know, I know.... the driver is capable of handling MANY more watts of power.  However, given my intended use, and intended location (our family room, which is just average-sized, maybe 20'x25'), the tech at Parts Express agreed that it should provide more than enough power.

 

Some have recommended the Dayton 300W w/ +6dB boost (but no DSP) for this driver when installed into a sealed box.

 

I also considered the Dayton SPA500-DSP, but it was over $10O more, and reviews were frankly not as favorable; several folks mentioned that it didn't seem to actually be putting out that much power. 

 

I am hoping that I will be able to take advantage of the DSP software to "dial things in" to the sealed box, and to better compliment my La Scalas.

 

Hopefully all of the parts and pieces will have arrived by the middle of next week.

 

I will try to take plenty of pics during the build process and work up a little "how-to" guide to post on the forum.

 

If any of you see a gaping hole or huge mistake in the making, please speak up and let me know!  If someone has an extremely compelling reason to go with something else, I would certainly welcome such advice.  The components can easily be returned / exchanged.

 

Later...

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Bullsh*t said:

Now, in terms of the amp, I ultimately decided to go with the Dayton SPA250-DSP. 

 

2 hours ago, Bullsh*t said:

If any of you see a gaping hole or huge mistake in the making, please speak up and let me know! 

 

I see a huge mistake, a gaping hole.  Get the amp that fits the driver, don't cheap out for a hundred bucks and underpower your sub.  The RSS390 HO can handle 800 watts.  Get at least 500 watts.

 

Power per amp at a minimum should be:

 

10" - 250 watts

12" - 350 watts

15" - 500 watts

 

I own the Reference 15 and use a Yung SD500 w/bass boost.  I don't know what is the "perfect" amp but I can assure you the Yung 500 w/BB is a good, reliable plate amp and it is very accurate in this configuration.

 

If you want an external amp I can sell you a Yamaha P-5000 pro amp for $125 shipped.  I have two I don't use and I think they are 600 wpc.  You have to get a couple of specialty cables from Monoprice.com but it's no less trouble than having to use your jig saw to cut a square into the back of your flat pack for the plate amp.

 

My personal recommendation is get a 500 watt plate amp, it's less hassle.  I'm not actively trying to sell the P-5000 but I will let one go if it helps you out.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, wvu80 said:

 

 

I see a huge mistake, a gaping hole.  Get the amp that fits the driver, don't cheap out for a hundred bucks and underpower your sub.  The RSS390 HO can handle 800 watts.  Get at least 500 watts.

 

Power per amp at a minimum should be:

 

10" - 250 watts

12" - 350 watts

15" - 500 watts

 

I own the Reference 15 and use a Yung SD500 w/bass boost.  I don't know what is the "perfect" amp but I can assure you the Yung 500 w/BB is a good, reliable plate amp and it is very accurate in this configuration.

 

If you want an external amp I can sell you a Yamaha P-5000 pro amp for $125 shipped.  I have two I don't use and I think they are 600 wpc.  You have to get a couple of specialty cables from Monoprice.com but it's no less trouble than having to use your jig saw to cut a square into the back of your flat pack for the plate amp.

 

My personal recommendation is get a 500 watt plate amp, it's less hassle.  I'm not actively trying to sell the P-5000 but I will let one go if it helps you out.

 

But its a done deal, he already ordered the Dayton 250 plate amp. (could return it tho)

 

I recently built a 18" sub using the Denovo DIY cab and use a Crown XLS 1002 external amp to power it. I think this is a better option really than a plate amp, lower wattage cost. The Crowns today have DSP, configurable high and/or low pass filters, stereo or bridged output, adjustable input sensitivity, both balanced and unbalanced inputs, and a three year transferable warranty.

 

And you can use the Crown amp for a stereo rig if you decide to take another route down the road. Several Crown XLS amp choices: from 1100 watts bridged to 2400. I picked up the XLS 1002 on ebay second hand for $254 delivered to me. So that's 1100 watts bridged @ 4 ohm load, full DSP control, and a better warranty. And it sounds really good driving a pair of speakers in stereo  mode using my older Cowen S9 mp3 player. This was my test mode when I received the amp.

 

The OP should take you up on your offer and purchase your Yamaha amp. Much better power choice for sure. $125 delivered, that's a deal.

RCA to 1/4" adapter cables can be had for $8 a side. Probably even cheaper off ebay.

 

$2.80 delivered for 4 adapters off ebay:  https://www.ebay.com/itm/4-Pack-1-4-6-35mm-Male-Mono-Audio-to-RCA-Female-Adapters-Connectors-Plugs/271546191003?hash=item3f396a0c9b:g:m2oAAOSwBp1Z3Y7E

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just got a Parts-Express sale flyer in my snail mail today. All of the Yung International class D sub plate amps are on sale right now @ 25% off. The 500 watt amp (with or without bass boost) is $182.21 shipped. Model SD500, or their part # 301-512.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, wvu80 said:

 

 

I see a huge mistake, a gaping hole.  Get the amp that fits the driver, don't cheap out for a hundred bucks and underpower your sub.  The RSS390 HO can handle 800 watts.  Get at least 500 watts.

....

If you want an external amp I can sell you a Yamaha P-5000 pro amp for $125 shipped.  I have two I don't use and I think they are 600 wpc.  You have to get a couple of specialty cables from Monoprice.com but it's no less trouble than having to use your jig saw to cut a square into the back of your flat pack for the plate amp. 

 

 

 

Many thanks to wvu80 for pointing out the "gaping hole" and also for offering me the good deal on the Yamaha P-5000S amp!   I have graciously accepted.  The Yamaha P5000S should certainly provide all the power I will need for my 15" DIY sub.  I ultimately decided to go with an external amp for the added flexibility it will give me should I want to use it with a different sub / speakers in the future.  

 

I will simply return the Dayton 250 plate amp which I ordered from Parts Express.

 

My overall goal is to build a system strictly for listening to my music – this will NOT be used for my home theater.  More specifically, I plan to use a laptop to stream high-resolution music files from a service like Tidal. I don't really have any experience yet with this kind of setup, but I find it appealing on the surface. 

 

Anyone have advice on how to get started with streaming high quality, "lossless" music files from a PC into my audio system would be greatly appreciated - I've had very little experience in this area...  And speaking of the Yamaha amp,  it's a bit older unit, and of course doesn't have integrated DSP...  Does anyone have a recommendation for DSP software (for Windows 10)?  Or a standalone DSP device?   Just how necessary / beneficial is it to have DSP?

 

The integrated amp that I recently acquired to power my La Scalas is the PS Audio Sprout 100.  After reading / watching as many reviews as I could find on the internet and YouTube about this unit, the general consensus is that it offers a lot of bang for the buck: 

https://hometheaterreview.com/ps-audio-sprout100-reviewed/?page=2

http://www.audiophilia.com/reviews/2018/5/17/ps-audio-sprout100-integrated-amplifier

 

The Sprout 100 delivers 50w per channel which should be more than plenty for the La Scalas.  It has a USB port for connecting to a laptop, a decent integrated DAC, and also a sub-out terminal that I will connect to the Yamaha P5000S.  I have no doubt that it will sound 200% better than the el-cheapo AV receiver to which the La Scalas are currently connected.  One day I will upgrade to a tube amp... but that's another story.

 


 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

↑ great choice. I'm sure several members will chime in on how to stream lossless from Tidal/ur pc. I have zero experience on this. codewritinfool comes to mind, I bet he can help you. FLAC or WAV files would be my choice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am considering a Sprout100. 

.... only thing that really put me off [from a mechanical point of view], is all of the controls ganged on one knob/button. How's that working out?

1 hour ago, Bullsh*t said:

 

The Sprout 100 delivers 50w per channel which should be more than plenty for the La Scalas.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, WillyBob said:

I am considering a Sprout100. 

.... only thing that really put me off [from a mechanical point of view], is all of the controls ganged on one knob/button. How's that working out? 

 

 

Well, actually, it's too soon for me to say, because it's still in the box!

 

But from what I've read, this is how I envision myself utilizing the Sprout:  Since it has an integrated Bluetooth receiver, I imagine that MOST of the time I'll leave the selector knob in that setting because it will leave me with a quick and easy way to get my tunes playing simply by using my Smartphone.  That's certainly what I'll be doing in the very beginning, because I've still gotta learn a lot more about high-def streaming. 

 

But when I do eventually get "lossless" audio figured out, I anticipate that most of the time the selector knob will be left in the "Digital" position, and then the primary source of input will be a dedicated laptop via a USB cable.  Also, I'm not sure about this yet, but I hope there will be a time when I am able to control what's streaming into the Sprout from the laptop utilizing my home WiFi network,  and if so I think that an interface app on my Smartphone should allow me to control the system.  Don't know if I'm making any sense, or not... but I basically one day I hope to be able to control my system from any room in my house via my WiFi network... THAT'S what my ultimate goal is.

 

In writing this, I have just realized a potential weak link in the system I'm putting together, and that is the lack of an integrated "trigger" to power on the Yamaha amp via detection of an input signal from the Sprout.  Which means that I am going to actually have to walk over to the system and physically flip a switch with my finger.  How... primitive!  That's so... yesterday! 

 

So, I think those auto-on triggers might well be one of the biggest advantages of going with a plate amp for a sub.

 

Is there an add-on trigger that can be used to turn on an amp like the Yamaha P5000S?  Not sure.... But I'm betting that this is a fairly common issue that's already been figured out.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Bullsh*t said:

Anyone have advice on how to get started with streaming high quality, "lossless" music files from a PC into my audio system would be greatly appreciated

Yeah ... would like to hear this also.  :D  Have "streamed" files from YouTube and some other services, but 99.9% are horrible when played on a "good" system.  Have found some good flv's, but have not found a good source /good selection for those. :( 

 

Usually cast from my PC to my AVR via ChromeCast, then "direct" out to a preamp/Crown K1 to my KPT-904's ... anything "bad" about this method?  Or PC out to RCA in on my vintage system.

 

Thanks, Emile

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Bullsh*t said:

Is there an add-on trigger that can be used to turn on an amp like the Yamaha P5000S? 

 

Use a Smart Strip.  This is the one I have.  If you research further you'll find Smart Strips with remote controllers, Alexa enabled, etc.  Whatever you have plugged into the smart outlet turns the other plug-ins on and off with it.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Smart-Strip-LCG-3MVR-Autoswitching-Technology/dp/B0006PUDQK/ref=sr_1_19?crid=32L7MU8SG34BL&keywords=smart+power+strip&qid=1561935566&s=gateway&sprefix=smart+power+%2Caps%2C192&sr=8-19

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On ‎6‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 7:39 AM, Bullsh*t said:

Ok, finally settled in for the evening after a long work week... Now I can focus on what's actually important:  subwoofers!

 

But first, regarding the controversial word I used in my initial post in reference to subs, "MUSICALITY"....

 

I was only trying to emphasize how I intend to use whatever sub I wind up building.. that is, what I want/need it to DO.  Nothing more, or less.  Perhaps I should have left that word out... certainly didn't mean to stir the pot.  I'm still learning the vocabulary about all this stuff.  But surely I'm not out of line to use such adjectives as "tight" or "accurate" or "fast" when referring to the sound and performance of a subwoofer?  And I've noticed those words most commonly being used to describe the sonic properties of a driver mounted in a sealed box vs. other types of enclosures. 

 

You bring up an interesting subject, namely going about bass performance beyond the mere typical and dare I say trite, insufficient and indeed ill-placed terminology that simply refers to the likes of "tight," "accurate" and "fast" (so, no, I don't believe you're in the wrong with your outset). Bass is much more than that, and authentically reproduced (at least to my ears) I'd even claim it's something other than "tight" and "fast;" natural bass to me is tuneful first and foremost, and has an effortless, smooth and wholly enveloping presence - regardless of playback level. Using the word "musicality" feels rather appropriate as a sibling-term to "tuneful" that describes this very ability as well, as it seeks to sum up an overall presence of music. When I listen to an upright bass in a live performance its fullness/richness, texture and layered sound is what strikes me, and very few speakers/subs I've heard are able to reproduce this remotely faithfully. When bass reproduction feels "tight" to me it often equates into an overdamped and constricted character, and at the same time much hifi-bass can also feel too ponderous and solidified. To my ears bass needs to float, envelope and excite the air, and this way lends itself to a more holistic experience. 

 

Quote

 

The same driver mounted into a (comparatively) massive folded-horn type of enclosure WILL have different sonic characteristics... not right or wrong, just different.  Truth be told, the number of times I'll actually get to crank up the volume on my system to, let's say, the average used in a movie theater - and then leave it up there while I sit and enjoy a favorite album start to finish - will be few and far between (this is sometimes referred to as "Qw" or "wife coefficient").

 

I'm trying to say that maybe sometimes less is more... more ideal for a given situation... and that smaller can still be sufficient

 

Now, I'm sure that there are some really good folded horn designs out there that really do achieve the best of both worlds:  still sound tight, accurate, & fast - but don't necessarily take up a huge amount of space.  That's what I'm here to learn about.

 

On the upper boldfaced part: yes, a fitting driver placed in a folded horn of some kind WILL have "different sonic characteristics" compared to a direct radiating iteration, but contrary to you I believe this change more successfully approximates what to my ears sounds right compared to a live acoustic reference. Quality bass/sub horns are rid of audible overhang, and exhibit a beguiling smoothness, omnipresence and ease making bass feel just there and properly integrated in the whole. In my specific setup I find a pair of tapped horns to blend in seamlessly with my all-horn mains, and compared to the FLH's I've heard my TH's have a more pronounced sense of (natural) warmth while feeling perhaps slightly more visceral.    

 

However, bass horns take up space, there's no way around that - it's simply dictated physics. There are relatively less space consuming alternatives though (oh well, certainly helped by their shape and not using +15" drivers), like lilmike's PicoWrecker tapped horns. A pair of those (or four) I'm sure would do wonders in most any domestically sized environment. 

 

Quote

 

But one can easily go overboard with a sub, no?  Is bigger necessarily always better?  I have heard some BIG subs in the past that were most certainly LOUD, and literally shook the entire room/rattled windows/etc... but to me, they didn't sound "musical"... (oops, I said it again... I guess I just don't know of a better word...).  Regardless of my choice of words, I know what I mean.  I've heard LOUD subs- but at the same time they sounded mushy/muddled.  They basically sounded like crap. 

 

Subs CAN be disproportionately large, even to the point of being humorous... sort of like the time I was with my brother-in-law at the lake on his nice Rinker, and he commented as a 40' Scarab roared by, "there goes another poor guy showing off his penis extension." 

 

(Sorry if I offended any cigarette boat owners out there... I personally think they're pretty awesome to watch! 😎)

 

 

 

 

 

Insofar a sub(s) doesn't physically and acoustically obstruct one's listening space, I don't believe you can overdo subs capacity by any typical, practical measure; headroom is your friend, and implementation is paramount. Indeed I'd stress the need for sheer capacity, and always go at least dual when implementing subs in your setup as this will aid response smoothness (with less need for EQ) and add headroom, all things being equal. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Enjoyed reading your responses, and can't disagree with anything you said.  When I was referring to those 3 terms,  I  was simply repeating the ones that seem to be most often used.... but your description of what constitutes GOOD bass was spot-on! 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/28/2019 at 2:16 PM, PrestonTom said:

Don't you think a horn loaded sub is going to be excessively large?

 

If you build the Low Profile version and stand it up to bounce off the ceiling, it's the same footprint as a Cornwall.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/29/2019 at 4:13 AM, Bullsh*t said:

Now, in terms of the amp, I ultimately decided to go with the Dayton SPA250-DSP

I set up one of these for a friend. I think you made a wise choice all around. You will not regret it. But I do recommend 2 subs, one for the front wall and one for the rear to keep it flat at the sweet spot. If you can find the white paper by Todd Welti of JBL, you will find the technical data that makes this secondary to optimum sub setup "the best bang for the buck." I have had 4 subs, as well as 2 and 3 in 4 different sound rooms. Having 2 is the best compromise, with only one sub being the worst.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...