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I DO NOT CELEBRATE the 4th Of July! I MOURN IT!!


JohnKuthe

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21 hours ago, oldtimer said:

 I also never mentioned efficiency, the term was effectiveness.

 

LOL,  Potato - Patato or however the ole saying goes ,  in this case the difference is trivial, but if you want to get technical, you should have used efficient instead.  According to Webster (I had to look it up) the use of "effective" infers  for the "good".....  which is clearly not the case for either the indians or the jews......  on that I'm sure we both agree.

 

 

20 hours ago, Zen Traveler said:

I realize I could and  for now will take your word on it--Both you and Gilbert are arguing historical facts and I was trying to see who could come up with a link to back up their position. :) 

 

LINK my ***.ets......  you're purpose is to shut down threads and toss gasoline on a fires..... I use to think you were a genuinely good person, but in light of comments, and actions here, I'm starting to think I was sorely wrong.

 

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21 hours ago, oldtimer said:

Deliberate slaughter of their food supply and way of life must not count for you. Believe the lies you wish.  I am not making a direct one for one analogy between those two either, that is simply the corner you want to place me in.  I also never mentioned efficiency, the term was effectiveness.  Like I said in the first place, there is a lot of good to go around with all of the bad.  There really is no argument.

 

 

What lies do I believe?

 

Just get your facts straight or be specific if you're going to piss on my country. If you're having a AOC moment, that's okay, just don't expect to piss on my country with unsubstantiated claims and expect everyone (least of all me) to accept your words as fact.  I'm kinda tired of hearing America Bad this .... America  Bad that by a bunch of ignorant twits who haven't got a grasp of history.... hence the AOC reference.

 

I realize these typed-discussions can skew quite easily..... but I'm not going to accuse you of believing lies.  And there is no argument; do you accuse everyone who disagrees with you as being argumentative?  Good luck with that.

 

As for you latest round of comments, it seems again there are inaccuracies and/or ambiguity with your choice of words, specifically, "deliberate" and "food supply"...... did you mean buffalo or all food sources; I assume buffalo, since you followed up with "slaughter", but that would be another ignorant statement, because dependency on buffalo meat and hides was predominantly limited tribes of the great plains.

 

Ciao'

 

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Many times I stated the lack of a judgment.  I am not pissing on our country.  And as for definitions, a river can shape a rough rock into a smooth pebble.  It is effective at doing so, but it takes a long time, and therefore not what could be described as efficient.  As we both know, statistics can lie, but the numbers don't.

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As a 100% service connected veteran with severe PTSD, I feel like I have a little insight.  Im tortured by nightmares every night.  Im a nobody, just a guy.

 

I have friends from various countries and varying ethnicity.  I stopped seeing imaginary boundaries.  People need to worry less about what they feel is “theirs” and look at the greater good.  People are people man.  We ALL bleed red.... 

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Somebody said they celebrate every day being alive....I dont.  Living is far more difficult than dying.  I live for my wife and those that would be haunted if I succeeded in a 4th suicide attempt.  

 

Living like this puts things in perspective.  War is war.  There is no good vs. evil.  Its all horrible in every way.  When you feel responsible for innocent people being killed, you don’t celebrate.  

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3 hours ago, jjptkd said:

Anyone not willing to celebrate the 4th because our country is "evil" please feel free to leave, find your utopian dream destination and send a postcard

Has anyone gone that far on this thread? Gilbert seems to have the same outlook but I didn't see where anyone thinks our country is "evil." Fwiw, discussing from a political perspective especially looking in the rear-view mirror can be helpful. Our country has a tremendous amount of good karma but as was mentioned the Cost of War isn't always a "Win" and those who fight it understand that WAY better than most. 

 

13 hours ago, Pats3of4 said:

I have friends from various countries and varying ethnicity.  I stopped seeing imaginary boundaries.  People need to worry less about what they feel is “theirs” and look at the greater good.  People are people man.  We ALL bleed red.... 

Well said. I also think from a historical level we need to define who "the Enemy" is as a nation an too many think it's within...THAT is when this important discussion gets too political for this Forum and folks will bring up the TOS. {NOTE: I don't want to see this thread closed regardless what Gilbert said above and the MODs know I try not to go over the line while giving a second opinion.} 

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15 hours ago, oldtimer said:

Many times I stated the lack of a judgment.  I am not pissing on our country.  And as for definitions, a river can shape a rough rock into a smooth pebble.  It is effective at doing so, but it takes a long time, and therefore not what could be described as efficient.  As we both know, statistics can lie, but the numbers don't.

But why complain about the scab you used to have?  We presently have (arguably) the best culture on the planet.

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13 hours ago, Pats3of4 said:

People need to worry less about what they feel is “theirs” and look at the greater good. 

To some extent, but still, it is our present culture which prevents us from going overboard with this sentiment.  In China, for example, there is one party.  The party reigns supreme.  It is not a rights-based society like ours.  Every there exists to serve the greater society.  All lives are expendable.  People are detained without due process.  They are made to disappear if they speak out against the party line.  

 

The short of it is we have to balance rights with the greater good.  Don't overlook the value of rights.

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5 hours ago, jjptkd said:

Anyone not willing to celebrate the 4th because our country is "evil" please feel free to leave, find your utopian dream destination and send a postcard

 

Is that what was said?  No, it wasnt.  You clearly are deluded if you think the American military doesnt engage in the same acts some here call terrorism.

 

 

Have you served?  Service connected veteran?  Receive a military pension and VA care due to the sacrifices you made?

 

 Ever suffered from PTSD?

 

you clearly have no idea what war is and what really happens

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1 hour ago, Jeff Matthews said:

Who among us still holds a grudge against Germany for the holocaust?  I realize some might, but most of the world seems to have moved on.  We are a new generation.  The same standard should apply at home.

I dunno, Jeff...This seems like a poor analogy given the historical mantra the Jews left us with regarding the Holocaust of NEVER FORGET

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1 hour ago, Jeff Matthews said:

But why complain about the scab you used to have?  We presently have (arguably) the best culture on the planet.

 

 

My we is different than yours.  I could care less about invisible boundaries.  I care about people- all people.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Jeff Matthews said:

To some extent, but still, it is our present culture which prevents us from going overboard with this sentiment.  In China, for example, there is one party.  The party reigns supreme.  It is not a rights-based society like ours.  Every there exists to serve the greater society.  All lives are expendable.  People are detained without due process.  They are made to disappear if they speak out against the party line.  

 

The short of it is we have to balance rights with the greater good.  Don't overlook the value of rights.

 

 

I wasnt talking governments.  Im not even discussing politics.  Your points further illustrate why the value of life needs greater consideration and not judging an entire country based on their government.

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18 minutes ago, Pats3of4 said:

 

You live my life then we will see.

 

When we had our private political forum I started a thread entitled The Cost of War which also included what our Military Families go through and had countless discussions about other ramifications. I can't imagine what you are going through and hope others appreciate it as well.  Military Service or not, every American has the right to voice their opinion and those who do so civilly should be considered more on the internet than those that don't, imo.  Thank you for your service and keep those with a positive outlook around you and I agree Family is the most important thing to consider. Good luck in your recovery. 

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I think we're all darn lucky to live in the US.  The history here is far from perfect, but so are the trials of evolution. What was cool yesterday will likely be very uncool tomorrow.  Besides, no one learns anything by getting it right the first time 😀

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7 minutes ago, veloceleste said:

I believe "Never Forget" is collective for all humanity. Depending on who is in power and the political climate it can easily happen again to another group. It is wise for all to never forget.

Sure, but Jeff specifically mentions the Holocaust and "Never Forget," is something that has resonated from that event and has stuck in my head. I have Jewish friends and visited countless historical places dealing with the Holocaust, including Dachau. I think Jeff is wrong that we've "moved on" and it is a part of German History that should still be revisited. 

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