Freedom of Speech?

[dwilawyer 2855]

1 minute ago, Zen Traveler said:

Yeah but notice "AOC" gets by the censors but you can't mention the POTUSA in something everyone acknowledges...You can't quote the president and that was allowed under Obama. 

You can if you can keep it historical, or is pretty tough to do with an current admin, or in an election cycle.

 

I have quotes numerous presidents, ot helps when they are dead.

 

You have nothing to fear except fear itself.

[Zen Traveler 958]

9 minutes ago, dwilawyer said:

Pundits =  politics

I'm not sure what this means but I was talking about the President of the United States. Yes, I mentioned separating the pundits from the decision makers.. 

 

6 minutes ago, dwilawyer said:

You can if you can keep it historical, or is pretty tough to do with an current admin, or in an election cycle.

 

I have quotes numerous presidents, ot helps when they are dead.

 

You have nothing to fear except fear itself.

Okay. This is over my head councilor and realize you are the moderator and I am just a participant. Thank you for volunteering and I am sorry if you misunderstood something I wrote, but will stand by it as being by the TOS in regard to the subject at hand. Y;all have a good one and PROST! 

[Max2 1126]

4 hours ago, Jeff Matthews said:

I understand the gist of your point, but it still all comes down to, "I know it when I see it." Case in point: there is a rather large constituency that claims climate change opponents aren't living in reality.

I get where you're coming from. 

 

Why did he take the job as an educational leader of a school in a very thick Jewish community such as the Boca area and then come across as he is denying or questioning it happened?

That was dumb.  You have to reserve your obtuse thoughts (and we all have them at times) in the public eye or you might get exposed and/or canned.  Heck what he said was as silly as a flat earth comment 

 

He might as well tell everyone the Holocaust code looked shaky when it was placed into the simulation we're living in.  

 

 

[dwilawyer 2855]

4 minutes ago, Jeff Matthews said:

Do you think the law can articulate a distinction like you are trying to express?  "Moon landings?  No problem.  Holocausts...  Now that's a different story."

Easily, and it does.

 

Clear and present danger, and Civil Rights Act, no statement based on gender, race, religion, or national origin.  

 

But since there is no free speech rights in employment,  with certain limited exceptions the protection doesn't apply.  Each employer can set their own rules with regard to speech.

 

Academic Freedom is really the right, protection that is more applicable here, but it only applies at college level.  It has been in existing since the 40's.  Put it is limited,  anyone teaching neutrality would be gone, quickly.  

 

 

[dwilawyer 2855]

2 minutes ago, Max2 said:

Why did he take the job as an educational leader of a school in a very thick Jewish community such as the Boca area and then come across as he is denying or questioning it happened

Don't know, but it doesn't matter where he said it, the belt buckle of the bible belt, or in a Muslim community, it was stupid everywhere, a crime in fact in most of Europe that they actually prosecute.  

 

What it shows it that the person has a serious flawed or lacking sense of judgement that has no business being around elementary or high school kids.

 

5 minutes ago, Max2 said:

Heck what he said was as silly as a flat earth comment 

 

It isn't flat?  Looks flat to me.

 

I don't think you can equate those two statements at all.

 

Travis 

[kevinmi 422]

This is a little off topic, but an interesting tidbit about freedom of speech in the workplace. I spent the last 24 years as a UAW represented employee at General Motors. When there were arguments between workers and management, the Union would always caution the worker on wording. If you called your supervisor an idiot, you could be disciplined. If you said I think your an idiot, they couldn't touch you because you were merely stating an opinion.

[Max2 1126]

13 hours ago, dwilawyer said:

Don't know, but it doesn't matter where he said it, the belt buckle of the bible belt, or in a Muslim community, it was stupid everywhere, a crime in fact in most of Europe that they actually prosecute.  

 

What it shows it that the person has a serious flawed or lacking sense of judgement that has no business being around elementary or high school kids.

 

It isn't flat?  Looks flat to me.

 

I don't think you can equate those two statements at all.

 

Travis 

My point was that you dont bite the hand that feeds you. Its basically what he did.     I do find the concept of Earth being flat as crazy as denying the Holocaust, maybe you misinterpreted my flat Earth comment? 

 

 

[wvu80 5843]

On 7/9/2019 at 3:22 PM, CECAA850 said:

He should teach the curriculum and stick to the facts in the textbooks he's been given. 

Yes ^^^.

 

If asked his personal opinion, the response should be "according to page 225 of your Social Studies book, it states..."  If the teacher by his/her non-answer was being political, that's one thing.  If he/she was allowing a student to come to their own conclusion based on what was read, that is something else.  Do we know the teacher's mind?

 

I don't believe a teacher would be sacked for one single statement, there has to be another side to the story we don't know.  This teacher may have had run-ins with other teachers/students/administration, they may have found him sharing meth in the parking lot with students, who knows? 

 

I am dubious due to what I DON'T know and therefore will reserve judgement, awaiting further light.

[wvu80 5843]

On 7/9/2019 at 3:27 PM, Jeff Matthews said:

On 7/9/2019 at 3:22 PM, CECAA850 said:

He should teach the curriculum and stick to the facts in the textbooks he's been given. 

Heresy!  The sun revolves around the earth!

Not likely.  🤣

 

Everyone knows the earth is flat. 

[oldtimer 12327]

26 minutes ago, wvu80 said:

Yes ^^^.

 

If asked his personal opinion, the response should be "according to page 225 of your Social Studies book, it states..."  If the teacher by his/her non-answer was being political, that's one thing.  If he/she was allowing a student to come to their own conclusion based on what was read, that is something else.  Do we know the teacher's mind?

 

I don't believe a teacher would be sacked for one single statement, there has to be another side to the story we don't know.  This teacher may have had run-ins with other teachers/students/administration, they may have found him sharing meth in the parking lot with students, who knows? 

 

I am dubious due to what I DON'T know and therefore will reserve judgement, awaiting further light.

for one thing, it was the principal, not just a teacher.

[wvu80 5843]

17 hours ago, dwilawyer said:

Academic Freedom is really the right, protection that is more applicable here, but it only applies at college level.  It has been in existing since the 40's.  Put it is limited,  anyone teaching neutrality would be gone, quickly.  

Not disagreeing with you, rather sharing a story.

 

I was a psych major at WVU but I took several theology courses from a brilliant professor.  Educated at Harvard, PhD from Oxford in England, world traveler, that sort of thing.

 

The first day of religion class he said "belief in God is not a requirement for passing this course.  Knowledge of the material is."

 

He was the best professor I ever had.  I learned more from him than all the psych profs put together.  He taught us to think.

[wvu80 5843]

11 minutes ago, oldtimer said:

45 minutes ago, wvu80 said:

I am dubious due to what I DON'T know and therefore will reserve judgement, awaiting further light.

for one thing, it was the principal, not just a teacher.

I am appreciating that from the later posts I read.  I also didn't know that was a heavily Jewish community.

 

Context matters, and it does make a difference.  Point well taken.

 

Based on yours and other's comments I am changing my view from "skeptical" to "he probably got what he deserved."

[babadono 4578]

So to sum it up freedom of speech does NOT mean say whatever you want to whomever you want whenever you want. Is that about it?

[Jeff Matthews 2122]

8 minutes ago, babadono said:

So to sum it up freedom of speech does NOT mean say whatever you want to whomever you want whenever you want. Is that about it?

Not quite.  The real question involved knowing what you can freely say vs. what will get you into trouble.  There are easy cases, and then, there are some really tough ones.

[babadono 4578]

10 minutes ago, babadono said:

So to sum it up freedom of speech does NOT mean say whatever you want to whomever you want whenever you want. Is that about it?

Sorry I meant if a) you want to stay alive, b) not get beat up, c)stay out of prison and d) keep your job.

[Zen Traveler 958]

20 hours ago, wvu80 said:

I don't believe a teacher would be sacked for one single statement, there has to be another side to the story we don't know.

 

20 hours ago, wvu80 said:

20 hours ago, oldtimer said:

20 hours ago, wvu80 said:

I am dubious due to what I DON'T know and therefore will reserve judgement, awaiting further light.

for one thing, it was the principal, not just a teacher.

I am appreciating that from the later posts I read.  I also didn't know that was a heavily Jewish community.

 

Context matters, and it does make a difference.  Point well taken.

 

Based on yours and other's comments I am changing my view from "skeptical" to "he probably got what he deserved."

Wow. I truly believe we could reach consensus on statements from people who affect our lives which seem to pass less scrutiny than teachers or principals...On that note, I gather wvu80 would have a different opinion if he were principal in a heavily Muslim community? How about one that had all religions and none represented?  

[wvu80 5843]

19 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said:

On that note, I gather wvu80 would have a different opinion if he were principal in a heavily Muslim community? How about one that had all religions and none represented?  

 

My mother used to say "when in Rome, do as the Romans do."

 

I don't know what I would do in your hypothetical, but I have my core values.  It's a fact we all need a job, but if that job required me to violate a core value or my professional ethics, I would leave for a different job.

 

I've done that before so it's not a theoretical exercise.  I've put my money where my mouth is.

[muel 1267]

Take a job with any fortune 500 company and find out how little free speech you have.  

[oldtimer 12327]

We train young men to drop fire on people. But their commanders won't allow them to write "****" on their airplanes because it's obscene!

[Blackbird 112]

On 7/9/2019 at 12:08 PM, Jeff Matthews said:

Should schools be able to fire teachers for believing the moon landing could have been staged?

 

The "moon landing" was a fictional work!