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mark fader

Frazier Model 7 Restore

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Yea that’s the link. My wiring is even the same as his. Even the same caps( uf value ). 

 

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On 7/19/2019 at 9:56 AM, glens said:

No!  Wait!  Just gandering at the pic again and the tweeter's right.  It's the mid looks polarity-reversed to me.  Hadn't sufficiently narrowed down the root cause of what caught my eye earlier. 

Correct, series crossover (12db) with mids reversed.

On 7/19/2019 at 10:42 AM, mark fader said:

You are right. that’s original wiring. My top post has an original pic and a post pick. I don’t know why it’s that way but it was the same on both cabinets. I just copied what was there. I looked and looked at that and although it is out of phase it is how Frazier wired it up. I even confirmed that to another website post with pictures. His were just like mine except his had L-pads not pots. He says the pads are original. If I can find the link I’ll post it. 

Yes that is the picture with the lpads.  Looks like they cut over after they moved to a different woofer.  You  have the Alnico (same as my original Vs) not the mud in the picture.

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21 hours ago, mark fader said:

Yea that’s the link. My wiring is even the same as his. Even the same caps( uf value ). 

 

You have the piezo tweeters, correct?  Wiring should be the same.  3 mh choke, 48 uf series crossover.  No components on the piezos.  The piezos could be helped if you look around the internet.

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20 minutes ago, pzannucci said:
22 hours ago, glens said:

No!  Wait!  Just gandering at the pic again and the tweeter's right.  It's the mid looks polarity-reversed to me.  Hadn't sufficiently narrowed down the root cause of what caught my eye earlier. 

Correct, serial crossover (12db) with mids reversed

 

Yeah, it dawned on me after that post that the mid could meant to be reversed due to the 90 degrees each opposite ways phase rotations of the 2nd-order crossover, but I'd littered the thread twice in a row already.  Still it would seem the piezo should be the same polarity as the mid, but I don't know if there's any inherent phase changes in a piezo - I'm only briefly acquainted with them.

 

I did perform some research in that regard but only caught that it was recommended to use a 20 to 30 ohm pot in series for attenuation, unless you put an 8 ohm resistor in parallel with the tweeter and use an 8 ohm L-pad.

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47 minutes ago, glens said:

 

Yeah, it dawned on me after that post that the mid could meant to be reversed due to the 90 degrees each opposite ways phase rotations of the 2nd-order crossover, but I'd littered the thread twice in a row already.  Still it would seem the piezo should be the same polarity as the mid, but I don't know if there's any inherent phase changes in a piezo - I'm only briefly acquainted with them.

 

I did perform some research in that regard but only caught that it was recommended to use a 20 to 30 ohm pot in series for attenuation, unless you put an 8 ohm resistor in parallel with the tweeter and use an 8 ohm L-pad.

There are some odd things that would need playing with here.  First the piezos are really a supplement to the 2 mids because the mids are full range.  The design could be cleaned up a bit but the original does work.  The resistor would work with the lpad to insure impedance though with no crossover on the tweeter, does it really matter? You aren't managing the impedance so your crossover works correctly.  You just want to cut the voltage.

You could always just use 1/2 of the lpad as a pot may be used. 

Just some odd thoughts.

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14 hours ago, glens said:

 but I'd littered the thread twice in a row already. 

 

Talk as much as you want. And anybody else for that matter. I want to hear all of your thoughts. 

 

But as far as the the pics go from the other guy on the other site with the original L-pads , what is the difference between his cabinets and mine at this point ? His tweeters , mids , crossover , woofer , l-pads , wiring , are stock. So I should be ok. At least by Frazier’s original standards anyway. 

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, pzannucci said:

  The design could be cleaned up a bit but the original does work.

 

As you said...( referring to my above post )

 

 

as with anything, especially something this old , and where tech has got better , there is room for improvement. But that’s why someone would go out and buy the new stuff.

 

The reason to keep it stock is to keep the original sound . If there is a need to tweak the hz a bit , there are eq’s that can be used , and the L-pads to knock the mids and highs down a bit if needed.  

 

Edited by mark fader

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1 hour ago, mark fader said:

But as far as the the pics go from the other guy on the other site with the original L-pads , what is the difference between his cabinets and mine at this point ? His tweeters , mids , crossover , woofer , l-pads , wiring , are stock. So I should be ok. At least by Frazier’s original standards anyway. 

 

If all the other system components are identical between his and yours then it matters little which path you follow.  

 

I'd bias the scales toward the later method, probably, in the event of actual sameness of drivers and xover coil / cap values.  If the reason they'd changed wasn't merely cost-cutting it would stand to reason to be the better choice. 

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9 hours ago, mark fader said:

 

As you said...( referring to my above post )

 

 

as with anything, especially something this old , and where tech has got better , there is room for improvement. But that’s why someone would go out and buy the new stuff.

 

The reason to keep it stock is to keep the original sound . If there is a need to tweak the hz a bit , there are eq’s that can be used , and the L-pads to knock the mids and highs down a bit if needed.  

 

Understood, as I said about my La Scalas.  Though, making something simply reversible if you long for the thought of "it is original"  is the way I'd do it.  Can't hurt to listen to better sounds, like taking an old car and reupholstering the seats cause you didn't want to sit on old ripped cloth and springs.  If you do some mods, they also may help those piezos last longer.  They get a little crackly with age (at least mine did).

 

8 hours ago, glens said:

 

If all the other system components are identical between his and yours then it matters little which path you follow.  

 

I'd bias the scales toward the later method, probably, in the event of actual sameness of drivers and xover coil / cap values.  If the reason they'd changed wasn't merely cost-cutting it would stand to reason to be the better choice. 

Yes, looks like Frazier changed several things along the way.  They went from a 8lb Alnico V slug magnet structure in their 12 inch woofer to a ceramic magnet and based on those pictures, used lpads later.  Crossover values seemed to have stayed the same.

 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, pzannucci said:

Can't hurt to listen to better sounds ... they also may help those piezos last longer.  

 

Good point and makes sense. What mods do you suggest for the tweeters ?

6 hours ago, pzannucci said:

based on those pictures, used lpads later. 

So Frazier used pots on mine. Then pads later ? pads can handle the power better. Even though a wirewound pot is the toughest of the pots , mine still got bad spots. I think they went bad because I never moved them and I play music loud sometimes. The pot finally burnt out. After all its only a 2 watt pot. Maybe the change was because the pads can handle the power. Frazier had a 5 year warranty. Maybe he got tired of replacing pots and started using pads ?

Edited by mark fader

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On 7/21/2019 at 2:28 PM, mark fader said:

 

Good point and makes sense. What mods do you suggest for the tweeters ?

So Frazier used pots on mine. Then pads later ? pads can handle the power better. Even though a wirewound pot is the toughest of the pots , mine still got bad spots. I think they went bad because I never moved them and I play music loud sometimes. The pot finally burnt out. After all its only a 2 watt pot. Maybe the change was because the pads can handle the power. Frazier had a 5 year warranty. Maybe he got tired of replacing pots and started using pads ?

Those pots were terrible.  Mine had a dead spot right where I wanted to set it on one.  I never invoked service though should have.

As far as the piezos, there are several suggestions on the web.  I would look around at the various items.  Mostly I would look at the ways to remove the hardness, possibly putting a crossover in place so they were less hard on the ears,  on the amp and for protection unless you don't crank them up.  It would require some experimentation to find what you liked but the pots/lpads would be priority as they are the key to balancing the output.

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I know it’s been awhile just because life got a little busy but I did get around to finally getting my set up all back together. To recap - I have Frazier model 7 cabinets, pioneer sx1050 receiver. The Frazier’s got a recap and Lpads ( to replace the pots ). the pioneer got the relay replaced and a good cleaning. This is the same set up I have been listening to for years. I didn’t do an a/b comparison but according to my ears everything sounds the same. The mid/ high started out sounding a little flat but after awhile they brighten up. So... I can’t complain. As far as I’m concerned nothing has changed and I hope to have many hours of happy listening in the future. Thanks for all your input over the weeks !!

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