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Klipschhorn sound underwhelming...help!


emw2net
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7 minutes ago, Ceptorman said:

Would he be better off to remove the 45 degree angled panels and place the Khorns in the corners and seal them off?

In terms of extending bass response: yes.  Corner bass traps in the near field of the Khorn don't need to be full-height of the room.  The standard 2x4 feet Owners Corning 703 panels, stacked double thickness and placed across the room corner will be plenty.

 

Chris

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33 minutes ago, wvu80 said:

 

We have a problem we need to clear up first.  In his first post he said the Khorns were from 1989.  The pics show a Type AA crossover unmolested and the s/n with an N indicates those are 1975. 

 

I think we need to determine first what he has.

Agreed. Good catch. I noticed the AA xovers in pix as well but it didn't click that he stated 1989. His pix also show a metal K400 horn. So OP whatcha got?

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22 minutes ago, babadono said:

... he stated 1989. His pix also show a metal K400 horn.

 

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the non-metallic Khorn mid-horn (K401) came in in 1987, so, since the OP has metal, it would not be 1989.

 

... And, it looks like he has round magnet K-77 tweeters, that are mounted on the back (inside) of the baffle board.  When my 1982 Khorns were new (before I put in stock AK4 upgrades, and K401s), they had flat magnet k77s.  The following year, they started front mounting them with the bracket.

 

They should still sound fine, but maybe the caps should be changed, since they are probably > 37 years old.

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Guys, 

The OP's complaint was 

"....

As far as the sound: thin bass, nasal vocals, flat, muffled, little dynamic range, lack of warmth and roundness, just not 'present' or 

life-like sounding,which is how I heard them sound in a different space, also with Jadis Orchestra. It's hard to tell the male from females apart in a chorus,...."

 

With all due respect, this sounds like it is way beyond a mis-aligned tweeter, metal horn,  or which generation of crossover it is. 

 

I will be a broken record .... 1) seal the cabinets into the corner (even with a mock up false corner and pipe foam), 2) Check all drivers and polarity, 3) is the access hatch on the bass bin intact. The other issues can wait until the obvious culprits are eliminated. 

 

My 2 cents

-Tom

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You can fix all this easy as long as all your drivers work.  First off, you have mid 1983 or older mid drivers, (V series instead of M's) which likely notes the dated AA networks as well.  Cant tell the cab numbers, but someone likely can read them better than I and possibly tell you if it all matches up.

 

You need to order some AK-3 networks from Crites or replace your caps or get someone on here to hook you up with a custom set.  The AA networks have been around since 1971 until 1983 ish. Before you do that, trace your wires and make sure they are in fact not out of phase or mid running into the tweeter section etc, etc.

 

Finally, you're gonna have to get the cabs in a corner or enclose the backs or build false corners. False corners are bulky, heavy and expensive to build. You can enclose the backs with one sheet of plywood. 1 sheet of plywood, four cuts and 16 screws. You never see them and you dont screw into the cabs, only the tailboard and side vent supports. Costs you $80 for a marine ply sheet.  I had this problem in my last home and enclosing the cabs will allow you to toe them in or out which make all the difference in the world with getting the imaging right with your listening distance.

 

Treatments are a huge difference maker in canceling echos and reverb which tend to be more present with horn setups.  This is the area so many people with incredible equipment setups and great listening rooms often never venture into and they're truly missing out. 

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On 7/22/2019 at 10:40 AM, Kalifornian said:

The single most influential positive change you can make are room treatments.

I hung lots of ElectroThreads blanket soft wall hanging thingies in my Listening Room to acoustically soften the '70's wood paneling! Works well too!

John Kuthe...

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On 7/25/2019 at 3:43 PM, garyrc said:

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the non-metallic Khorn mid-horn (K401) came in in 1987, so, since the OP has metal, it would not be 1989.

 

My '89 LaScalas had the cast metal horns. Of course, they could have switched on the KHorn  and then used up inventory on the LS...

 

Bruce

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I am attaching some more photos-it looks like these speakers are pre 1980s (metallic mid-horn). If I custom built new crossovers and do some modifications (which, after having a look at the photos, I invite you to recommend: https://critesspeakers.com/crossovers.html) - does this greatly improve the imaging of the speakers? I will seal them into the corners as well.  Room treatments have already been ordered. As far as source: I only listen to hd tracks, lossless files.

Please do consider that I am located in Germany, not the US when suggesting vendors.

I moved here after many years in the States - there is always the option of having a friend bring the parts with them to Europe.

IMG-8048.jpg

Klipsch front.jpg

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  • 2 months later...

Congratulations on your beautiful rosewood-oiled K-horns!!

 

Now, let's make them SOUND beautiful!

 

PRIOR TO stuffing those K-horns into the corners, you NEED TO CLEAN ALL OF THE CONTACTS on the speakers...ESPECIALLY the crossover networks.  ONE AT A TIME, remove a wire from its contact, clean the contact and the wire end connecter, then replace and move onto the next one.  EVERY CONNECTION, to include where the wire meets the drivers, if not soldered!

Be sure not to ignore the connectors in the bass bin!...and where the connector on the bass bin hatch is...remove it, clean it good, and screw it back on, tight!  While you have things open in the bass bin check the screws securing the woofer to the motor-board and ensure they are tight.

 

NEXT, ensure your Midrange compression driver is unscrewed from its K400 horn lens, and REPLACE the red rubber gasket , and screw the driver into place again HAND TIGHT!...NOT just FINGER TIGHT!

 

If the bass bin hatch panel needs a new gasket, then clean it up and install one!

 

More people than you can count  tend to find that on older speakers they have purchased, when they have actually CLEANED all the connections, many of their complaints about performance just seem to have disappeared!  Trust me on this.  The midrange driver-to-horn lens rubber gasket is probably hard as a rock and needs to be replaced with a new pliable one so that it can seal properly.  I will bet that a good part of your Midrange issue is ALSO due to the old gasket under your mid-range driver in the horn lens....if it isn't sealing properly!  Trust me on this!

 

NO NEED TO REPLACE a good AA network with a different network on any speaker shipped with an AA, IMHO!  At worst, the AA's just need connectors cleaned and maybe caps changed out.

 

Do all of this PRIOR to stuffing into a corner, unless you actually ENJOY lugging all that weight around!

 

Just use high percentage rubbing alcohol for cleaning your electrical contacts...and lots of q-tips!  TOO EASY!  BTW...there is a thing called "dielectric grease", which CONDUCTS electricity, and also keeps connections from corroding and such...thereby eliminating the need to clean contacts more often...you can find it in auto parts stores in small tubes...use this after cleaning the contacts, but prior to re-connecting things on all of your screw-down connecting surfaces...apply with q-tips!

 

No need to replace the network caps NOW, just clean things up and listen to them before you let UPGRADE-ITIS take over!  The AA network is the best network for what your speakers are, IOW....it is what they came with and were tested with!  All the later networks also tended to come with changes in the drivers or horn lenses....or both!

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They have been placed snug in the corners. The room treatments are a big project ( currently delayed as the builder here is behind schedule). It will include

a 35 well stepped diffuser designed by Prof Trevor Cox,  middle bass traps and  absorber panels. I will send pics as soon as its all in place.

I contacted Crites regarding the Type A crossovers and he answered that that the type A does not have any tweeter protection. So that if I am  using the original K-77 tweeters, type A without tweeter protection puts those tweeters at risk because they are extremely delicate. If I wanted to continue to use the K-77 tweeters, it would be better if you order the type AA crossovers  that do have tweeter protection. Or that I should upgrade the tweeters to a more durable and better performing tweeter like their CT120, and then use the type A crossover (since the new tweeters would not need any tweeter protection). 

The idea of just having to meticulously clean all contacts and this resulting in noticeable improvement is more appealing, of course. 

Thoughts...?

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IMHO, Wait until the treatments have ben installed and then listen to them for a few weeks.

 

At that point decide what the weakness are that are bothering you (if any). I think that is a more focused strategy.  

 

BTW, unless you listen at crazy levels, I would not worry much about the the K77's being "delicate". The difference in sound between a type A vs type AA crossover is not dramatic (both having fresh caps). However, if I had the type AA, I would eliminate the diode protection and leave the "protection" solely to the 3rd order high pass filter to the tweeter.

 

Good Luck,

-Tom

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On 10/2/2019 at 11:22 AM, emw2net said:

 

They have been placed snug in the corners. The room treatments are a big project ( currently delayed as the builder here is behind schedule). It will include

a 35 well stepped diffuser designed by Prof Trevor Cox,  middle bass traps and  absorber panels. I will send pics as soon as its all in place.

I contacted Crites regarding the Type A crossovers and he answered that that the type A does not have any tweeter protection. So that if I am  using the original K-77 tweeters, type A without tweeter protection puts those tweeters at risk because they are extremely delicate. If I wanted to continue to use the K-77 tweeters, it would be better if you order the type AA crossovers  that do have tweeter protection. Or that I should upgrade the tweeters to a more durable and better performing tweeter like their CT120, and then use the type A crossover (since the new tweeters would not need any tweeter protection). 

The idea of just having to meticulously clean all contacts and this resulting in noticeable improvement is more appealing, of course. 

Thoughts...?

 

Yeah get em cleaned up and see what you think...

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  • 7 months later...

The speakers were designed to fit into 90-degree corners. This room has some panels spanning across the corner at a 45-degree angle. Remove these and push the Klipschorns into the corner so that their sides parallel the wall. The speakers will not couple to the room air as it should with that corner configuration. 

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