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Gain matching amps on Biamp system


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Whatever works best. I can say that ART thing did not add any noise, I say this because it is used with very efficient speakers. it’s being used with the K402’s and MWM’s which is about as efficient as you can get and I hear no noise at all, that would drive me crazy.

 

It is used with the adjustment knob about half way which raised the input gain to where it made a big difference. I use it between the source and the EV dx 38 active crossover

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19 hours ago, dtel said:

 

Whatever works best. I can say that ART thing did not add any noise, I say this because it is used with very efficient speakers. it’s being used with the K402’s and MWM’s which is about as efficient as you can get and I hear no noise at all, that would drive me crazy.

 

 

dtel I got the Art delivered today and going to add it in the system tomorrow when I get home. I will let you know how it works out. 

Thank you for the recommendation.  

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The only issue I see as being less-than-desirable is that of balancing what the horn is going to want done to the signal with what the low-freq is going to want, particularly in the range they have in common.  Performing the equalization on the entire signal prior to the crossover just will not work as well or as completely as equalizing the sections individually.

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I've not read the entire thread so if I'm off base....I'll beg your pardon up front.

 

As I think I'm piecing together, you have (or want to obtain) two different amps to biamp with.

 

I started biamping with two fixed gain amps.  I used the active to compensate them and bring them to 'unity' so to speak.  Worked fine.  One of the amps was hyper sensitive (1 V input sensitivity) and the other was 2.5 volts....  so it was hair triggered.

 

Got rid of those amps and replaced them with a pair of Crown K2's that have their own gain controls.

 

Now I can simply put each channel on "the 14th click".  It might not be perfectly matched but, I can't tell.

 

Prior to the Crown's, I had a dbx BX-3 amp which was a 4-channel amp.  Also had variable gains....BUT....  there were NO detents on them so I was always fiddling with the gains, wondering how exactly matched they were....drove me nuts.

 

The Crown's greatly simplified things for me.

 

I think I'd go absolutely bonkers if I had two different amps and BOTH had variable gain knobs....

 

If I was standing behind you and you were standing at a fork in the road, I'd push you down the path marked "simplify your life" .....

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37 minutes ago, Coytee said:

I've not read the entire thread so if I'm off base....I'll beg your pardon up front.

 

There are basically two parallel story lines.  One being gain matching (been "solved" a couple ways) and the other dealing with equalization.  He's gonna get pretty close to what's needed with his tools of choice.

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2 hours ago, Jim Gregory said:

dtel I got the Art delivered today and going to add it in the system tomorrow when I get home. I will let you know how it works out. 

Thank you for the recommendation.  

I hope it works out for you as well as it worked for me, I have no complaints at all.

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51 minutes ago, glens said:

 

There are basically two parallel story lines.  One being gain matching (been "solved" a couple ways) and the other dealing with equalization.  He's gonna get pretty close to what's needed with his tools of choice.

Your right,  I don’t know about the EQ because I use a Dx 38, but I did have a gain problem, glad that’s over.

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8 hours ago, glens said:

Performing the equalization on the entire signal prior to the crossover just will not work as well or as completely as equalizing the sections individually.

Once again “Smart Guys” see the problems before they happen. I understand enough to follow your logic. (I’m learning/catching on). The way I have put this system together is definitely flawed in that respect, which is significant when I realize that the end results means that these wonderful speakers will never reach their acoustic potential. “Dang” I feel like Charlie Brown. 

I will hope that by taming the worst frequency offenders and finding the best happy medium around the crossover points that just maybe I will be “content”. And for sure I will have gotten closer to audio perfection then where I was just 3 days ago when you so graciously stepped in to educate, guide and invest your time in a total stranger. 

Thank You Glens. I will let you know how things turn out. 

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8 hours ago, Coytee said:

If I was standing behind you and you were standing at a fork in the road, I'd push you down the path marked "simplify your life"

Everything you have stated about mismatched amplifiers problems is the truth. I can only blame myself for starting down this path and Nelson Pass for making the SIT3. “Which Makes me Smile A Lot”. 

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Hi Jim,

 Is this on your KPT-456? I am with Coytee on this and I would push you down the simple path too. Two cheapo Crown xli800's working fine here. Speaking of which you need to stop in again when you are in the area for my current "patio" system😀

 

  I am finding my gain problems are best solved with a Xilica or equivalent. Set the basic volume up on the amps and leave them alone and further tinkering is through the xilica. I had an imbalance in gain with my two amps but that xilica fixed all that and more.

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I wouldn't have collected that equipment with the end goal being what he wants to do, but if I already had it I'd sure as shootin' give it a try.  Trying to get everything equalized all at once might work out okay, and not getting time alignment just so (another point I'd not brought up yet - don't recall whether anyone else has mentioned it) might work out okay, too.

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54 minutes ago, glens said:

I wouldn't have collected that equipment with the end goal being what he wants to do, but if I already had it I'd sure as shootin' give it a try.  Trying to get everything equalized all at once might work out okay, and not getting time alignment just so (another point I'd not brought up yet - don't recall whether anyone else has mentioned it) might work out okay, too.

Well I did the same thing he did in a manner of speaking. As we find out more we look for different things to buy but we still have many of those bits and pieces we have bought along the way. Some are useful and some need to be sold off.

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7 hours ago, Dave A said:

 Is this on your KPT-456? I am with Coytee on this and I would push you down the simple path too.

Yes Sir, the very ones I picked up from JWC. I still have the 301ii’s & 115’s I got from you, but sadly I am going to let them go. These 402/904’s are the speakers I am going to take to the grave, which may be earlier than not with gain matching, frequency equalization, and the not even considered time alignment. Lol 

These are all as a matter of fact truths that have happened in my life:

I purchased a airplane and didn’t know how fly..

The first time I flew the airplane I was by myself.

I opened a Jewelery store before I had any jewelry to sale...

I have had 3 funeral arrangements,  used two and I’m still here. 

I drove to Lynnville, TN and picked up a pair of 301ii/115. A month later drove to Atlanta, GA and picked up a pair of 456’s. And I didn’t even know what a capacitor, frequency or crossovers were.  Now that’s crazy and even crazier when you consider I graduated from college with honors.

But I wouldn’t change any of it. 

And I’m having as much fun with this audio adventure as I did with the airplane. 

Glens “ Sir I will ask for your (explanation and assistance) with the time alignment. And if you get to the point where you just can’t take anymore of me do like they do in wrestling and 

“tap out”. 

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4 hours ago, Jim Gregory said:

And I’m having as much fun with this audio adventure as I did with the airplane.

 

Yeah but when you crash & burn on these audio purchases, it hurts substantially less.....

 

:huh:

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20 hours ago, Jim Gregory said:

Yes Sir, the very ones I picked up from JWC. I still have the 301ii’s & 115’s I got from you, but sadly I am going to let them go. These 402/904’s are the speakers I am going to take to the grave, which may be earlier than not with gain matching, frequency equalization, and the not even considered time alignment. Lol 

These are all as a matter of fact truths that have happened in my life:

I purchased a airplane and didn’t know how fly..

The first time I flew the airplane I was by myself.

I opened a Jewelery store before I had any jewelry to sale...

I have had 3 funeral arrangements,  used two and I’m still here. 

I drove to Lynnville, TN and picked up a pair of 301ii/115. A month later drove to Atlanta, GA and picked up a pair of 456’s. And I didn’t even know what a capacitor, frequency or crossovers were.  Now that’s crazy and even crazier when you consider I graduated from college with honors.

But I wouldn’t change any of it. 

And I’m having as much fun with this audio adventure as I did with the airplane. 

Glens “ Sir I will ask for your (explanation and assistance) with the time alignment. And if you get to the point where you just can’t take anymore of me do like they do in wrestling and 

“tap out”. 

Well that's how you do it. I decided I needed to add CNC machining to my skill set and went and bought a Haas VF3. Well do you know how to run one my friends say? As a matter of fact no but I bet I figure it out.

 

Unless you get a set of 402's to go on those I would not worry about time alignment. Your drivers are so close I doubt highly anyone could hear a difference. Now if I talk you into building a set of S-MWM's with an 88" difference between drivers you might need it. I ended up going active and there are enough benefits to doing so besides time alignment that I will not be going back to passives for my personal systems. Bi amping made me discover that output from the same type of amps will differ and balancing that also will make a difference.

 

I remember when I first heard 301's. I still like the older ones with cloth grilles the beat and you recap and stick some MAHL tweeters in there and they are awesome. But yeah you start finding out about things like 456's and better and all the other stuff just does not cut it anymore. I was pleased to see you get those. You were lucky by the way. There was a brief flurry of those to hit the market and then nothing anywhere. I sold 8 sets and none lasted more than two weeks and most were gone in a week and I have looked high and low for more. Don't let those go.

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23 hours ago, glens said:

I wouldn't have collected that equipment with the end goal being what he wants to do, but if I already had it I'd sure as shootin' give it a try.  Trying to get everything equalized all at once might work out okay, and not getting time alignment just so (another point I'd not brought up yet - don't recall whether anyone else has mentioned it) might work out okay, too.

I had to be dragged into electronic this and that kicking and screaming. But now that I am here it was worth it. On Jim's 456's he might have 2 or 3" difference in driver depth so I cant see he would ever need to do time alignment. Bi amping and dialing in all the drivers with EQ and gain along with REW measurements I bet would help though. I have Crown amps, Xilica and REW setup and I cant see needing anything more for my lifetime based on what I am hearing here today.

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