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Rewiring Klipschorns


bkwa1959

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I say we get Jeff together with some highly-resolving gear and have him show us what he's really capable of hearing in a blind listening test.  With both instantaneous switching and waiting several minutes between samples (like enough time to unsolder a component and solder in another [or swapping leads on one], or moving a driver/horn 1/8 inch - one that's sitting on bricks and golf balls.  With him going mobile and sitting back down, too).

 

I really, really, really want to see him pull it off.  That would be neat.  Possibly as with most who make such claims, there'll be some rationale provided why it didn't work.  Either way it turned out it would be fun.

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18 minutes ago, glens said:

I say we get Jeff together with some highly-resolving gear and have him show us what he's really capable of hearing in a blind listening test.  With both instantaneous switching and waiting several minutes between samples (like enough time to unsolder a component and solder in another [or swapping leads on one], or moving a driver/horn 1/8 inch - one that's sitting on bricks and golf balls.  With him going mobile and sitting back down, too).

 

I really, really, really want to see him pull it off.  That would be neat.  Possibly as with most who make such claims, there'll be some rationale provided why it didn't work.  Either way it turned out it would be fun.

I would also like to see this, not in jest.  I'm genuinely curious.  I *know* that some people can hear things I cannot.  

 

I deal in measurable electronic things on a daily basis.  I would love to find something that shouldn't cause an audible difference that someone can definitively hear, then try to figure out by measurements what the difference is.  The right way is A/B/X double blind testing.  

 

I think this should definitely be set up somewhere, someday.

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47 minutes ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

When you disturb wiring on a great system, unplug RCA jacks, turn amps on and off, it takes hours for things to settle back to max, usually overnight !!

 

So the failure rationale (if that above could be so considered - I, for one, consider it utter hogwash) precedes the test?

 

How can one possibly compare changes if they must wait so long between iterations?  Do any creatures really have sufficient aural memory to do that?

 

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1 hour ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

When you disturb wiring on a great system, unplug RCA jacks, turn amps on and off, it takes hours for things to settle back to max, usually overnight !!

So when I stagger off to bed and forget to turn the amp off it is a good thing!

I knew it, I just knew it.

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I have three really well recorded CDs that I use for listening tests. I've been using them since the mid 80s. Changes are pretty obvious to me, even overnight. But I'm talking crossovers and equipment -- not wire. The only time I heard a difference with wire was when I tried some five 9 silver speaker cables.

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I read this stuff and I shake my head and smile.

 

Unfortunately, some (but not most) people will see these testimonials and double-talk (IMO) and think maybe they should spend  serious money and effort on cables and warming up RCA plugs for a day etc. 

 

The reason it is unfortunate is because there are a number of effective things (grounded in engineering, science, common sense, and critical thinking) that they could easily perform to make real improvements in their systems. This silliness is only side-tracking real improvements. 

 

Good luck,

-Tom

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2 hours ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

 

 You  -  St. Louis area, me Warrensburgh, MO.  Why don't you visit me, later this year, and hear my system and new DC KT88 amp.  Bring ANY amp you care to, to A-B.   Be fun to meet you !!  Do you know amp audio builder, Willie Rivers Jr in Saint Louis??   

 

When you disturb wiring on a great system, unplug RCA jacks, turn amps on and off, it takes hours for things to settle back to max, usually overnight !!

 

Jeffrey Medwin

 

At the moment there is a family member's medical condition that prevents me from traveling more than about 30 minutes from home.  I would love to take you up on that, though, and thank you for the offer.  I also think that you and I doing an A-B-X test is not sufficient.  We need at least another individual, perhaps more than that.  If I'm there, I don't want to know which is A or B or X.  I want a neutral party to do that and log results.  We need enough tests so that you are certain of your answers.  It shouldn't be too hard if things are plain to hear, as you say.  My opinion does not matter; I've already stated that I know some people can hear things I cannot.  What I'm interested in things you think sound superior, and I'm interested in enough blind testing such that statistically it will differentiate facts from random chance.

 

The hours or overnight stipulation is not too realistic, so let's think about an ABX test that can be switched at will without delays or downtime.  Surely if things are day-and-night, we can devise some tests that fit the bill.

 

Thanks again for the invite.

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When doing incremental stuff I've found that a change for the better often times necessitates change back "for the better" at a later point.  There comes a time when you have to acknowledge that "hearing" is itself a moving target.  At least I've acknowledged that mine is.

 

If I can't hear two very close options with near instantaneous switching between them then I'm wasting my time trying to choose which I prefer.  If I have to wait hours or days between them, then forget it.  Likewise if it takes hours or days of listening to "generally perceive" a difference a change makes, then I know it's not worth my time to dick with it.  I know my hearing (aural memory) is not stable enough to chase minute increments over time.

 

I fully realize that such acuity as being discussed, while outside my grasp, must certainly be more within the grasp of some folks.  However, when utterly outlandish claims are made, either in addition, support, or especially as a basis for the ability and/or results, credibility goes right out the window, regardless.

 

 

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35 minutes ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

 Hello, 

 

 From late Q4 2019 on, you and any of your friends would always be warmly welcomed, and it would be fun to meet you.  

 

I have my VOTTS set up,  ( A7-8s)  after several years, finally,  to where I am happy with them, and the new KT88 DC SE amp looks like it will have me quite satisfied. 

 

I have work to do , to have friends listen.  I need to repair my System Attenuator.  Priority number one.

 

I then have to replace a broken Phono RIAA EQ, with something decent, that I can afford.  Maybe build one. 

 

I have a decent turntable, arm, and 13 Fulton ( conical stylus  ) moving coil cartridges.  What a shame,  over 10.000 L.P.s,  but a unrepairable RIAA EQ !!  

 

Been using the top-of-the-line Pioneer BDP-09FD Blu-Ray player, which is decent enough.

 

You stated this as an idea :   " We need at least another individual, perhaps more than that. "   I agree, but its not always  easy to A-B things.  ( If it is BLOWING you away, there is less need to A-B or to prove - anything. !! )   Look what I put together, about a week or two ago, where we all went to Montana -  just to hear audio gear, amps mostly.  

 

                     https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/185504-montana-directly-coupled-2a3-amps-versus-missouri-kt88s-in-sepentode-zero-nfb/

 

Jeffrey Medwin

 

 

Yes, I saw that.  I see every post on every thread, believe it or not.  Just to state it again, I'm not here to embarrass you or anyone.  My ears aren't what they used to be, and I'm in my early 50's.  I know I can't hear certain things anymore.  I believe there isn't any magic or witchcraft or quantum effects in any of this.  I believe that any differences in an AB test should be measurable with standard instruments.  I'm intrigued by your claims of hearing things that make others lose their minds - just from the claims!

 

Mark Waldrep has said (and I believe him) that if you AB a tune with a louder version of itself, most people will chose the louder one as better.  This doesn't say which one is actually better.  Better is itself a subjective term.  So let's not get into "blowing you away" comparisons.  Let's stick with, say, wire.

 

I contend that neither you nor anyone else should be able to consistently and definitively hear the difference between these wires:

 

57 1/8" wire vs. some other length, say 60".

 

Standard wal-mart 16ga zip cord "speaker wire" vs. a coat hanger.

 

If you can, I should be able to measure that "something" in amplitude or phase or impedance or capacitance or some combination.  My guess is that I could "null test" the wal-mart wire vs. the coat hanger without a person in the loop and the difference would be zero.   

 

We cannot have a day or even hours between tests.  The test switching must be near instantaneous.  Let's figure out what that looks like.

 

 

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18 hours ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

Inside an a DIY amp I am constructing, one can often hear the difference between one inch of 16 AWG versus the use of 10 AWG for that same one inch span. 

 

I find that to be an incredible statement considering the poor quality soldering I see in your builds. The lousy solder joints likely cause far more audible degradation than the few milliohms difference between wire gages do.

 

I see you use a soldering gun for your projects. So did I when I was a high school student many years ago. I have since learned that a controlled temperature soldering iron with interchangeable tips yield the best results; Temperature controlled soldering equipment is required by NASA, and soldering guns are specifically prohibited.

 

 

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41 minutes ago, bkwa1959 said:

I may be a little off topic here, but below is a picture of my Klipschorns upgrades with the Western Electric wires and other upgrades that to me takes a great speakers and takes it to the next level.

 

I am pretty sure you can not go off topic on your own thread. You are the OP, have at it. In my opinion, your post was the most on topic in many pages.

Have fun with your thread. There should be some helpful info hidden in here somewhere.

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On 8/8/2019 at 1:39 PM, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

 

 

Hi Tom,

 

 

Yes, about 40 years of hearing wires,  building amps and some speakers with different wires, and hearing what it does when incorrect and correct.

 

 

Jeff 

So it's all your subjective opinion in other words?

 

Fair enough, that just means it will vary from person to person.

 

Travis

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