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Rewiring Klipschorns


bkwa1959

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On 8/13/2019 at 1:40 PM, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

 

 

How about this :

 

The 80 rapidly became one of the most popular small speaker systems among listeners who were aware of its existence and attuned to the sound of live music.  

 

 

 

It had little appeal for listeners with no associations of live-music experience, but the reactions of those who did were positive and, eventually, fiercely loyal. The FMI 80 touched them in a way no other speaker system had, "

 

Travis, I was there !!.   Peerless stopped making the lovely alnico 2 1/4 inch driver,  ( a pair used as the mids - top-end of each FMI 80 ), and Robert had to find a solution to find a part-substitute  for the Peerless driver,  which had no current equal at that time.  

 

Capish ??

 

Jeffrey 

 

Now you know whats behind the scenes. 

No capish.  I was quoting an audio magazine article about him, they were taking him of their recommendations list because he was constantly changing his design and offering mods, mods that went backwards.

 

PWK invented.the Klipschorn in '46 because he was all about capturing the live music experience that other speakers at the time couldn't.  It is what he designed his speakers to do.

 

He was preaching the live music experience, and continuing with it 30 years before this guy came along.

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On 8/13/2019 at 1:17 PM, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

 

 

My goodness, no need to use the words " crap shoot "  on a public forum.  Its degrading .

 

Better to use the words " not yet determined" or " unknown at this point ".

 

Regarding  the topic you bring up, my plans are that I will further evaluate this amp, on others' systems. 

 

1) I started by schlepping it to and from Montana two weeks ago, where a panel of five listened, VS excellent sounding Serious Stereo 2A3 amps.

 

2) It next goes to a huge ALTEC A2 or A4   venue   ( 1911 K.C. firehouse, multiple 515Bs and 288s  ) , versus a Yamomoto A-08 Type 45 amp,  for maybe a month.

 

( That is " no contest  " actually , my Type 45 amps from 2 yeas ago killed his Yamomoto, and I now think  this newest amp  is WAY beyond anything ever built ).

 

3) I know of one Klipschorn owner in K.C. area, and maybe I can schlep the amp over there, and let him hear it, perhaps he will report up here, if he cares to.

 

 

So Travis , lets change the word " crap shoot " to " undetermined at this time ".  That seems reasonable to me, would you concur sir ??

 

Amps are the weak link in all High Efficiency audio systems, is my contention.   

 

Thanks .  Best.

 

Jeffrey Medwin

 

 

Um, based on my 40 years of audio experience, I'm sticking with crap shoot.

 

But would welcome hearing one more tube amp review about how a particular tube amp, of a certain topology sounds with the greatest speakers in the world.

 

TrVis

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Just now, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

 

 

Not a big deal at all Travis !!  Paul was born 21 years before Robert, and he lived 35 years longer than Robert, who passed away at age 63.

I don't understand?

 

PWK had 4 core design principles. Many, many people later took those same principles and started speaker companies.  

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16 hours ago, dwilawyer said:

I liked the voice coil thickness idea, however, what I really want to know is the thickness of the wire in a typical amp fuse. 

 

It's immaterial as anyone worth their salt bypasses them with an "attended listening" switch!

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Jeffrey,
So you bypass your fuse with a switch. How do you know which switch to use? Do they sound different to you?

If a switch-bypassed fuse sounds better than a fuse, do you use a power cord and electrical outlet combo? Wouldn’t a direct-wired setup sound better?

Have you tried different circuit breakers?

I am genuinely curious as to the depth of your perception ability.

Keep in mind, once again, I don’t think I could hear any of this.

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On 8/17/2019 at 9:40 PM, dwilawyer said:

I liked the voice coil thickness idea, however, what I really want to know is the thickness of the wire in a typical amp fuse. 

 

Because you asked, and I am also curious, I measured a 3 ampere fuse, similar to the ones used in some pro woofer cabinets.

 

P1030276.JPG.7e04b3852ddcf215877150793dccd464.JPG

 

P1030275.JPG.b50cd67a9475bb8d34144fba1f95680e.JPG

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The length-to-width ratio of the line between the dam and the house is considerably higher than that of the fuse's internals.

 

Just looking at the pictures, I'd say that fuse couldn't hardly carry but a few Amperes, and even then not for very long before it becomes a light source.  No way in hell the leading edge of a transient can get through that thing unscathed!  For the very best mind-blowing performance you absolutely must bypass it with 57-1/8 inches of #8 high-silver-content wire. 

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On 8/18/2019 at 11:11 PM, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

I don't have good hearing, but do have lots of experience with live and reproduced sounds.

 

 

So if you "don't have good hearing", then how do you know if any of these things make a difference in the first place?  This makes absolutely no sense.  Why even waste all the time and money on these so-called upgrades if your hearing isn't even that great?  This would be the main reason I don't jack around with overpriced gear, updates, upgrades, cables, etc.....I just don't hear a justifiable difference.  I'd rather spend the money buying music to LISTEN to versus always messing with something.

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2 minutes ago, avguytx said:

 

So if you "don't have good hearing", then how do you know if any of these things make a difference in the first place?  This makes absolutely no sense.  Why even waste all the time and money on these so-called upgrades if your hearing isn't even that great?  This would be the main reason I don't jack around with overpriced gear, updates, upgrades, cables, etc.....I just don't hear a justifiable difference.  I'd rather spend the money buying music to LISTEN to versus always messing with something.

Please try to refrain from using logic in the future.  It has no place in this discussion.

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27 minutes ago, avguytx said:

 

So if you "don't have good hearing", then how do you know if any of these things make a difference in the first place?  This makes absolutely no sense.  Why even waste all the time and money on these so-called upgrades if your hearing isn't even that great?  This would be the main reason I don't jack around with overpriced gear, updates, upgrades, cables, etc.....I just don't hear a justifiable difference.  I'd rather spend the money buying music to LISTEN to versus always messing with something.

 

He's bored and craves attention.

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15 minutes ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

 

Good morning.  

 

What you apparently don't know is how older experienced audio people hear and can react to a hi fi system, so as to determine what is musically correct, or incorrect in high-quality audio playback. 

 

I believe there is a LOT that we all here realize.  I try to stay out of all of this because it's just ridiculous in reading it all and that a person actually believes what they are trying to portray.  From an outsiders point of view, it's humorous to the point of being.....sad.

 

I don't doubt your abilities in being able to design and build an amplifier at all.  It's just how far out there in right field over the foul ball line it goes to "insinuate" that the rest of the English speaking world is an idiot in comparison to your thinking.  That's what really irks me.

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1 hour ago, CECAA850 said:

Please try to refrain from using logic in the future.  It has no place in this discussion.

Hmmm you forget some operate on a much higher level of logic and it surpasses what we can understand. It has to be self learned and only one on this forum has achieved this ability to not hear but still hear.

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On 8/16/2019 at 11:03 PM, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

 

 

Glens,

 

Capacitors are the WORST performing parts in audio, and very few are truly great.  Actually, there is NO one capacitor we can buy, at any price, that all by itself, will give us FULL musical expression.. ALL will leave out parts of the recorded music, somewhere in the sonic spectrum, and also, typically will be dynamically deficient.

 

If a person " wants it all " on music playback, we are forced to add to that single film cap a minimum of four additional caps, of much smaller uF values, which will play differing parts of the sonic spectrum, and fill - in where the single cap is deficient.   Done properly, the overall playback result..... is wonderful.

 

On that 8 uF designated value of a speaker crossover, it would be MUCH MUCH better to never use a single 8 uF cap, that's NOT good audio design at all.   Instead INTELLIGENTLY use a bundle of five or more film caps.  Lets say the combined value of the main cap, and the bypasses, totals in the range of 7.0 uF to 9.0 uf.  I tell you, this is FAR FAR better, because it plays all the music back to us, than any single cap of 8 uF precisely,  can do !!  No contest.

 

Why isn't this done much in audio ??  The answer is multi-fold in my opinion.  A contrite answer is, most don't know how to do it , or are oblivious to this entirely.

 

Here are some factors that inhibit the use of multiple film bypass cap implementations :

 

1) The designer has to know, what value caps effect what parts of the spectrum.  Few do, world-wide.

 

2) They have to use only some of the highest quality caps made, and if selling to Joe-Public, it can be cost prohibitive to optimize the bypassing ( IF they knew how to ! ).

 

3) They have to know , for each needed value in the sound spectrum, which Manufacturers make the best sounding caps of that certain needed value.  This takes a) experience, b) experimentation, and c) a large parts budget.

 

4) A cap could be very good at a certain value, yet NOT combine well in a bundle.  Richard Marsh's DynamiCaps however, made by REL, are designed to work when in parallel FYI.

 

5) The designer must cater to the miniscule number of end-users who would be discriminating, upon hearing the results, and who would be willing to pay for it, to enjoy the difference.

 

6) The designer must have a good enough system, and musical sensibilities, to resolve parts differences accurately.

 

I will say this, it is possible to use one high quality cap in a crossover location, and have satisfactory results.   I would estimate someone like deang does this very very well.  The end user is happy. 

 

However, if someone who knew how to properly bypass a "C" location, had the budget - did so properly, it would be impossible for the listener to go back to listening to a single cap, upon hearing the difference, assuming the listener had a great system to start with.

 

In amps, since I know caps are so bad,  I direct couple my Power Amps, and only use the "C" , often bypassed, in many power supply locations.  But a "C" bundle can easily cost me over $200, and its used in eight locations minimum, in my latest KT88 amp build.  This adds up, such that most are oblivious to the practice of multiple cap bypassing.

 

Am I clear to you in my answer sir ??  It was so nice to see an intelligent question posted !!  Thanks.

 

Jeffrey Medwin

 

 

I had no idea this fount of wisdom was at it again but now I am compelled to go through it all later today. I am going to put down the current science fiction read which has a finite end already and spend a bit of time on this thread which is in active creation. How often do you get to see fiction created right before your eyes outside of mainstream network news?

 

  I bet Bill Nye says capacitors work just like our resident guru does and two brilliant scientific minds can't be wrong.

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1 hour ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

What you apparently don't know is how older experienced audio people hear and can react to a hi fi system, so as to determine what is musically correct, or incorrect in high-quality audio playback. 

 

If you can not hear differences between those things you posted,  I suggest you simply don't know how to put a high performance audio system together, that will highlight these nuances. 

If hearing is impared, I'm not sure how else you'd be able to tell.

 

To quote Mitch Hedberg, "I was walking down the street with my friend and he said 'I hear music,' as though there's any other way to take it in. 'You're not special. That's how I receive it too... I tried to taste it, but it did not work'."

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