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Rewiring Klipschorns

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23 hours ago, glens said:

 

 

 

 

Jeff, are you saying that if a high-pass filter design specifies some μF value, it doesn't matter how many capacitors you combine to get that value?  Or, God forbid, are you actually intending to say that the specified value is really immaterial?

 

You seem to care little about drawing distinction between disparate uses of capacitors, instead lumping them all together.  This is your chance to address this question specifically:  Is it important to match as closely as is practical a loudspeaker crossover capacitor design value, in whichever way, or is it unimportant?

 

 

 

 

Glens,

 

Capacitors are the WORST performing parts in audio, and very few are truly great.  Actually, there is NO one capacitor we can buy, at any price, that all by itself, will give us FULL musical expression.. ALL will leave out parts of the recorded music, somewhere in the sonic spectrum, and also, typically will be dynamically deficient.

 

If a person " wants it all " on music playback, we are forced to add to that single film cap a minimum of four additional caps, of much smaller uF values, which will play differing parts of the sonic spectrum, and fill - in where the single cap is deficient.   Done properly, the overall playback result..... is wonderful.

 

On that 8 uF designated value of a speaker crossover, it would be MUCH MUCH better to never use a single 8 uF cap, that's NOT good audio design at all.   Instead INTELLIGENTLY use a bundle of five or more film caps.  Lets say the combined value of the main cap, and the bypasses, totals in the range of 7.0 uF to 9.0 uf.  I tell you, this is FAR FAR better, because it plays all the music back to us, than any single cap of 8 uF precisely,  can do !!  No contest.

 

Why isn't this done much in audio ??  The answer is multi-fold in my opinion.  A contrite answer is, most don't know how to do it , or are oblivious to this entirely.

 

Here are some factors that inhibit the use of multiple film bypass cap implementations :

 

1) The designer has to know, what value caps effect what parts of the spectrum.  Few do, world-wide.

 

2) They have to use only some of the highest quality caps made, and if selling to Joe-Public, it can be cost prohibitive to optimize the bypassing ( IF they knew how to ! ).

 

3) They have to know , for each needed value in the sound spectrum, which Manufacturers make the best sounding caps of that certain needed value.  This takes a) experience, b) experimentation, and c) a large parts budget.

 

4) A cap could be very good at a certain value, yet NOT combine well in a bundle.  Richard Marsh's DynamiCaps however, made by REL, are designed to work when in parallel FYI.

 

5) The designer must cater to the miniscule number of end-users who would be discriminating, upon hearing the results, and who would be willing to pay for it, to enjoy the difference.

 

6) The designer must have a good enough system, and musical sensibilities, to resolve parts differences accurately.

 

I will say this, it is possible to use one high quality cap in a crossover location, and have satisfactory results.   I would estimate someone like deang does this very very well.  The end user is happy. 

 

However, if someone who knew how to properly bypass a "C" location, had the budget - did so properly, it would be impossible for the listener to go back to listening to a single cap, upon hearing the difference, assuming the listener had a great system to start with.

 

In amps, since I know caps are so bad,  I direct couple my Power Amps, and only use the "C" , often bypassed, in many power supply locations.  But a "C" bundle can easily cost me over $200, and its used in eight locations minimum, in my latest KT88 amp build.  This adds up, such that most are oblivious to the practice of multiple cap bypassing.

 

Am I clear to you in my answer sir ??  It was so nice to see an intelligent question posted !!  Thanks.

 

Jeffrey Medwin

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

On that 8 uF designated value of a speaker crossover, it would be MUCH MUCH better to never use a single 8 uF cap, that's NOT good audio design at all, but instead INTELLIGENTLY use a bundle of five or more film caps.  Lets say the combined value of the main cap, and the bypasses, totals in the range of 7.0 uF to 9.0 uf.  I tell you, this is FAR FAR better, ...

 

Am I clear to you in my answer sir ??  It was so nice to see an intelligent question posted !!  Thanks.

 

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

In that other thread I'd addressed the reactance of several of the values you'd declared pertinent to portions of the audio spectrum, and how at each of those elevated levels of reactance they can only account for passing a miniscule portion of the signal on to the driver.  As I'd also said, the audio ranges you gave for the values may indeed be more applicable to the impedances inside an amplifier.  But aren't you direct-coupling everything there?  Not really a question to you there...

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36 minutes ago, glens said:

 

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

In that other thread I'd addressed the reactance of several of the values you'd declared pertinent to portions of the audio spectrum, and how at each of those elevated levels of reactance they can only account for passing a miniscule portion of the signal on to the driver.  As I'd also said, the audio ranges you gave for the values may indeed be more applicable to the impedances inside an amplifier.  But aren't you direct-coupling everything there?  Not really a question to you there...

 

There are LOTS of all-film Cs, used  in the power supply , the KT88 amp build had eight " C " bundles in different critical places.  Ran me out of money, along with the trip to Montana.

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8 hours ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

 

  Ran me out of money, along with the trip to Montana.

 

And yet, you can still afford an internet connection. Yay for us.

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9 hours ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

On that 8 uF designated value of a speaker crossover, it would be MUCH MUCH better to never use a single 8 uF cap, that's NOT good audio design at all, but instead INTELLIGENTLY use a bundle of five or more film caps.  Lets say the combined value of the main cap, and the bypasses, totals in the range of 7.0 uF to 9.0 uf.  I tell you, this is FAR FAR better, because it plays all the music back to us, than any single cap of 8 uF precisely,  can do !!  No contest.

 

Ummm....does this mean that @Deang would have a lot of crossovers to redo??

 

 

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31 minutes ago, Coytee said:

 

Ummm....does this mean that @Deang would have a lot of crossovers to redo??

 

 

 

 

I certainly don't think so !!!    What he does is AOK for the intended users.   

 

Above, I wrote this :

 

"  I will say this, it is possible to use one high quality cap in a crossover location, and have satisfactory results.   I would estimate someone like deang does this very very well.  The end user is happy.  "

 

He does fine !!  

 

One size, doesn't fit all.  I am introducing to you and discussing a different way I prefer to do it, in amps, crossovers, etc., thats all.

 

Jeffrey Medwin

 

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23 minutes ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

What he does is AOK for the plebeians.

 

Fixed it for you.

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12 hours ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

 

 

Glens,

 

Capacitors are the WORST performing parts in audio, and very few are truly great. 

 

 

 

you just made our point right there... thank you

 

tenor.gif

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Jim Hunter, Curator of the Klipsch Museum of Audio History speaking at the AWA Convention in Rochester, NY this week.

 

Read the slide, my favorite PWK quote. 

 

 

IMG_7498.jpg

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Here is a closer view to make it easier. 

 

 

IMG_7497.jpg

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On 8/13/2019 at 1:40 PM, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

 

 

How about this :

 

The 80 rapidly became one of the most popular small speaker systems among listeners who were aware of its existence and attuned to the sound of live music.  

 

 

 

It had little appeal for listeners with no associations of live-music experience, but the reactions of those who did were positive and, eventually, fiercely loyal. The FMI 80 touched them in a way no other speaker system had, "

 

Travis, I was there !!.   Peerless stopped making the lovely alnico 2 1/4 inch driver,  ( a pair used as the mids - top-end of each FMI 80 ), and Robert had to find a solution to find a part-substitute  for the Peerless driver,  which had no current equal at that time.  

 

Capish ??

 

Jeffrey 

 

Now you know whats behind the scenes. 

No capish.  I was quoting an audio magazine article about him, they were taking him of their recommendations list because he was constantly changing his design and offering mods, mods that went backwards.

 

PWK invented.the Klipschorn in '46 because he was all about capturing the live music experience that other speakers at the time couldn't.  It is what he designed his speakers to do.

 

He was preaching the live music experience, and continuing with it 30 years before this guy came along.

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On 8/13/2019 at 1:17 PM, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

 

 

My goodness, no need to use the words " crap shoot "  on a public forum.  Its degrading .

 

Better to use the words " not yet determined" or " unknown at this point ".

 

Regarding  the topic you bring up, my plans are that I will further evaluate this amp, on others' systems. 

 

1) I started by schlepping it to and from Montana two weeks ago, where a panel of five listened, VS excellent sounding Serious Stereo 2A3 amps.

 

2) It next goes to a huge ALTEC A2 or A4   venue   ( 1911 K.C. firehouse, multiple 515Bs and 288s  ) , versus a Yamomoto A-08 Type 45 amp,  for maybe a month.

 

( That is " no contest  " actually , my Type 45 amps from 2 yeas ago killed his Yamomoto, and I now think  this newest amp  is WAY beyond anything ever built ).

 

3) I know of one Klipschorn owner in K.C. area, and maybe I can schlep the amp over there, and let him hear it, perhaps he will report up here, if he cares to.

 

 

So Travis , lets change the word " crap shoot " to " undetermined at this time ".  That seems reasonable to me, would you concur sir ??

 

Amps are the weak link in all High Efficiency audio systems, is my contention.   

 

Thanks .  Best.

 

Jeffrey Medwin

 

 

Um, based on my 40 years of audio experience, I'm sticking with crap shoot.

 

But would welcome hearing one more tube amp review about how a particular tube amp, of a certain topology sounds with the greatest speakers in the world.

 

TrVis

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11 minutes ago, dwilawyer said:

Um, based on my 40 years of audio experience, I'm sticking with crap shoot.

 

But would welcome hearing one more tube amp review about how a particular tube amp, of a certain topology sounds with the greatest speakers in the world.

 

TrVis

 

As you wish, I have no problem with that at all, even if I were to disagree.

 

Greatest speakers??   I don't know anyone local with an all - ALE driver system.  Just my friend Larry's in Mexico.

 

Jeffrey Medwin

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16 minutes ago, dwilawyer said:

No capish.  I was quoting an audio magazine article about him, they were taking him of their recommendations list because he was constantly changing his design and offering mods, mods that went backwards.

 

PWK invented.the Klipschorn in '46 because he was all about capturing the live music experience that other speakers at the time couldn't.  It is what he designed his speakers to do.

 

He was preaching the live music experience, and continuing with it 30 years before this guy came along.

 

 

Not a big deal at all Travis !!  Paul was born 21 years before Robert, and he lived 35 years longer than Robert, who passed away early at age 63, not at 98. 

 

Jeffrey Medwin

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On 8/13/2019 at 3:24 PM, Khornukopia said:

 

I certainly would not want to mislead any novices with any outrageous implications.

I liked the voice coil thickness idea, however, what I really want to know is the thickness of the wire in a typical amp fuse. 

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Just now, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

 

 

Not a big deal at all Travis !!  Paul was born 21 years before Robert, and he lived 35 years longer than Robert, who passed away at age 63.

I don't understand?

 

PWK had 4 core design principles. Many, many people later took those same principles and started speaker companies.  

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10 hours ago, dwilawyer said:

I don't understand?

 

PWK had 4 core design principles. Many, many people later took those same principles and started speaker companies.  

 

Well you see, with the current price of bulk tea in China..

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16 hours ago, dwilawyer said:

I liked the voice coil thickness idea, however, what I really want to know is the thickness of the wire in a typical amp fuse. 

 

It's immaterial as anyone worth their salt bypasses them with an "attended listening" switch!

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On 8/18/2019 at 3:00 PM, glens said:

 

It's immaterial as anyone worth their salt bypasses them with an "attended listening" switch!

 

 

Please eliminate " worth their salt " and you will have it right !!!    In my 2019 DIY amps builds, which are now 8 AWG m22759/11 grounded, we will soon prove the efficacy of such a switch, as people, other than me, experience such amplifier wiring in action.  It was highly evident to me in Montana, and I described it in that thread's first post to you all well, ( in my point c),  the plucked guitar string playback description .  I have named this, upon hearing it in the new KT88 prototype, "dynamic nuance definition ".  This performance is totally absent on playback - in all amps not-so built.  But the good news is I am sure all the better high efficiency speakers will allow the end user to experience this aurally .  Its an amp design problem unresolved till now, not a speaker shortcoming.

 

Glens, with the new KT88 amp, I have discovered there is TWO kinds of " High Definition " parameters ( using Audio Research' / William Zane Johnson's term ), now possible for amps to exhibit

 

1)   High AUDIO Signal Definition ( voltage ).  ( William Z. Johnson's term ) 

 

2)   High Dynamic Nuance Definition ( current ) .  ( Jeffrey D. Medwin's term, new ) 

 

Just like the fuse example , the voice coil wire example is also immaterial,  wildly misguided, because it is a fixed winding - and one can not change it, and have the voice coil operate better.  Likewise, we can not change the AWG of the fuse's internal wire , can we !!! 

 

We can however,  ( and I do ) exert total control of the wiring leading to and from ANY magnetic winding.  I take - care to do this type of optimization..  If looking for highest playback performance, not just the typical mid-fi performance, we must do this, both in our speakers and in our amplifiers. 

 

The standard 100 year old E.E. formulas do NOT apply here my good audio friends, this is  ART... the art  of building a truly great amp for audio. 

 

Glens, I will briefly herein re-address points 1) and 2) above,  to allow you ( and others ) to contemplate the new KT88 amplifier design :

 

*    For 1) above, High AUDIO signal Definition,  I run only one stage, mu of 100,  as the ( KISS ) amp's entire front end, and unlike ANY amp known to me, the tubes B+ is  heavily SHUNT            regulated, not once, but TWO times in a row. .   Double B+ SHUNT regulation, ........where most  tube amps have none.   Hey Hey Hey, I can now understand the Soprano's diction.

 

*    For 2) above, High Dynamic Nuance Definition,  there are uniquely employed - several things :

 

                 *  Chokes to the Finals total only 12 Ohms DCR  ( Fraker LSES power supply ).

 

                 *  Uniquely - use GTO bypass caps to the output stage - that can do 1,500 A. instantaneous.

 

                 *  Use of two 5U4GB rectifiers, which provides half the rectification DCR, and four times the peak instantaneous pulsed current capability, versus one

                     5U4GB. But I have retained the sonic advantage of a Directly Heated / high current rectifier tube.

 

                 * First audio use ever, with a 8 AWG grounding system, of m22759/11, a wide-band high-quality wire.  ALL other internal amplifier wiring I could think of,                                                 has been addressed by me, as initially taught to me by Dennis Fraker,  and the amp is thoroughly optimized for PEAK, PULSED  current      

                    .....................................................................................................

                    except for the 120 VAC Fuse and Thermistor  ( for start-up reliability ) .............which, as you so keenly recalled,  we short-out during attended listening.

 

 

Jeffrey Medwin

 

PS,

 

I knew Wm.Z.Johnson personally, and Nancy, back in the day. They knew me. I even had his Peploe Dual 100 ( two chassis - regulated B+ ) 6550 amp running my large Fulton speakers, decades ago.  Peploe Dual 100 amp is the deluxe pre cursor to the simpler / cheaper first ARC D-75. 

 

Better higher efficiency speakers, including Klipsch aren't the problem, amps are.  A person once nicely said " What the world needs now is a good 5 Watt amp "  

 

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/185504-montana-directly-coupled-2a3-amps-versus-missouri-kt88s-in-sepentode-zero-nfb/&do=findComment&comment=2410010

 

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Jeffrey,
So you bypass your fuse with a switch. How do you know which switch to use? Do they sound different to you?

If a switch-bypassed fuse sounds better than a fuse, do you use a power cord and electrical outlet combo? Wouldn’t a direct-wired setup sound better?

Have you tried different circuit breakers?

I am genuinely curious as to the depth of your perception ability.

Keep in mind, once again, I don’t think I could hear any of this.

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