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bkwa1959

Rewiring Klipschorns

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I have installed the NOS Western Electric 14ga wire in speakers,crossovers,tweeters,mids and woofers I can tell a difference.My cost was a 1.54 a foot and money well spent.Everyone has different opinions on cables, but at the end of the day the only thing that matters is what works best in your system and how each move we make helps our system.

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I have 14AWG OFC wire...  I don't really feel like my system is lacking.  Especially not in any way to got buy new wire so my wife can look at me like a dumbass while trying to discern any sort of difference, which I doubt I'd hear.  


I also have a background in EP.

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12 hours ago, bkwa1959 said:

I have installed the NOS Western Electric 14ga wire in speakers,crossovers,tweeters,mids and woofers I can tell a difference.My cost was a 1.54 a foot and money well spent.Everyone has different opinions on cables, but at the end of the day the only thing that matters is what works best in your system and how each move we make helps our system.

 

Hello, 

 

 Nice report, intelligently stated.  Everything has to match in a system.  

 

The average tube audio amplifier will have about a 100 Ohm DCR ( D C resistance ) choke in the power supply, feeding the output tubes their B+.  For optimum bass response, definition, and dynamic ( pulsed ) contrasting, that choke should have had a DCR of 20 Ohms, or less. 

 

I now use two 6 Ohm chokes in series, ( 12 Ohms total DCR to the output tubes ) and  not one, but TWO 5U4GB tube rectifiers....( this halves the rectification's DCR, and quadruples the power supply's Peak Instantaneous Current delivery capability ).

 

It would only be in a system such as I use, that one will very easily hear the difference between 14 AWG to a woofer, and 8 AWG wire to a woofer.

 

I don't deny some people will be very happy,  very likely the majority of people.............. using tube amps, with 14 AWG wiring. 

 

This is due to all the tube amps' ( deficient )  high DCR power supplies.  

 

But, some of us do use low DCR rectification and low DCR choke filtering, for audibly higher audio performance,  I do.  In that case, I can logically report that 8 AWG is needed and lovely to hear.

 

I believe I have technically hit the nail on the head, between our two ( valid ) listening experiences, assuming you use some sort of tube amps on your Klipsch speakers.

 

Thanks for your post.  I enjoyed it, it's tone, and it encouraged me to write this one.  Best wishes.

 

Jeffrey

 

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13 hours ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

1) all wires should be 57 1/8th inches, or, in some cases, multiples and / or divisors of 57 1/8th inches.  It is THE best basic length for audio applications.

 

 

Jeffrey Medwin

 

Why?  What is the supporting evidence for this assertion?  Is this supposed to apply to all audio systems in all circumstances? 

 

And what does it even mean?  Does the 57 1/8 inches include the length of wire inside the loudspeaker cabinet, between the speaker terminals  and the speaker?  Or does it only count the wire outside the speaker cabinet?

 

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1 hour ago, Backfire said:

And what does it even mean?  Does the 57 1/8 inches include the length of wire inside the loudspeaker cabinet, between the speaker terminals  and the speaker?  Or does it only count the wire outside the speaker cabinet?

 

You'll have to get in line waiting for that answer.

 

All I know is that a friend/mentor of his was tasked once decades ago with optimizing a system going to 60 kHz and 57-1/8" leads is what it took, though no mention was made of the wire composition or gauge used.

 

And don't bring up any electrical theory if you want the discussion to continue.

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8 hours ago, Backfire said:

 

Why?  What is the supporting evidence for this assertion?  Is this supposed to apply to all audio systems in all circumstances? 

 

And what does it even mean?  Does the 57 1/8 inches include the length of wire inside the loudspeaker cabinet, between the speaker terminals  and the speaker?  Or does it only count the wire outside the speaker cabinet?

 

 

 

This was work done in the 1970s by Audio / Recording Engineer Robert W. Fulton, of Fulton Musical Industries.  He was the developer of the Fulton FMI 80 bookshelf loudspeaker, that blew Gordon Holt, of Stereophile Magazine away.  Robert also developed the then - top - rated high end large audio loudspeaker, called the Fulton J- Modular, and later - the seven-way Fulton Premiere ( 12 Hz to 80 kHZ,  plus or minus 1 dB ). 

 

Robert mentored me.

 

Good questions, yes, the 57 1/8th ( or a divisor thereof, 28.56 inches ) applies to internal wiring to the drivers.  Yes, it applies to all audio systems, the better the system, the more obvious it is !! 

 

Supporting evidence was anecdotal, it came out of a problem one of the local Minneapolis Universities was having, testing mammals with high frequency audio signals, where Mr. Fulton was called in as a consultant, and he fixed the problem.  

 

Mr. Fulton introduced the audio world to wire for audio, back in that time period.   His complete audio wire line, interconnects and speaker leads, was offered in various 57 1/8th inch multiples, and his speakers were internally connected in a similar fashion.  The " hep" 70 and 80 year old guys on this Forum, who were also into audio BIG back then, will surely recall him.  Robert  William  Fulton and engineer William Zane Johnson, the founder of Audio Research Corp., were friends with each other back then, both were from Minneapolis.

 

                                                                                   http://fultonmusicalindustries.com/biography.html

 

Jeffrey Medwin

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So exactly which measurable parameters do the special wire lengths affect in the audio spectrum?

 

How much variance can the length be before it changes things in some measurable way?

 

...and I don’t mean ears.

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16 minutes ago, codewritinfool said:

So exactly which measurable parameters do the special wire lengths affect in the audio spectrum?

 

How much variance can the length be before it changes things in some measurable way?

 

...and I don’t mean ears.

 

 

I have NO idea.  Robert would know.  He knew better than anyone how to measure audio, used a 2 GIG scope in the 1980s, ( which a typical audio / EE would not comprehend in 2019 )..... but Robert  passed away in 1988.

 

I can tell you this, on my trip to Montana last week, to visit a small High End audio Manufacturer, he told me his AC power cords sounded better to him, when they were two lengths, rather than a shorter one length increment !!   Ditto for speaker cables.

 

He independently evaluated the 57 1/8th inch length idea in about 2018, on his state of the art system, with the world's best sounding ( IMHO ) tube amps,.  He fully adapted the 57 1/8th inch length increment, into his audio system. 

 

This is the ONLY person I know of, in all these years,  who has a fabulously revealing system, a good ear,  AND also did subjective aural length comparisons. 

 

Jeffrey Medwin

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1 hour ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

the seven-way Fulton Premiere ( 12 Hz to 80 kHZ,  plus or minus 1 dB ). 

 

Not possible on the low end with one 12" woofer.  I'd like to see a response graph.  Statements like that make pretty much everything every thing else you say unbelievable.

 

EDIT, never mind the response graph, if that's what it showed then whoever made it either forged the info, was incompetent or both.  Do you have any idea what it takes for a subwoofer to be flat to 12Hz?

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1 hour ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

Supporting evidence was anecdotal, it came out of a problem one of the local Minneapolis Universities was having, testing mammals with high frequency audio signals, where Mr. Fulton was called in as a consultant, and he fixed the problem.  

 

Jeffrey Medwin

 

It seems like a bit of stretch, to generalise from distressed baboons listening to ultrasonic signals to saying "It is THE best basic length for audio applications."

 

This chap Fulton seems to have had a bit of a sense of humour.  Do you not think it possible that he, and also the small High End audio Manufacturer from Montana, might have been having a bit of fun pulling your leg?  Perhaps they felt you present a rather tempting target for a little gentle persiflage?

 

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On 8/8/2019 at 10:55 AM, Max2 said:

I finished the mods  on my Klipschorns,I have B&C DCM -50 mids,B&C de120-8 with fastrac horns,alk Cornscala crossovers ,Volti horns ,and western electric 14ga wires.I will play the speakers with these mods for a couple of weeks and then I will then switch out for Volti crossovers vtk-400’s,bms4592nd mids and Beyma cp-25 tweeters and see which one I like the best.Maybe after this I can leave things alone and focus on listening to my system.I doubt it because I am always trying different amps, preamps and speakers

I went down a similar path, and ended up making much bigger tratrix horns, which I feel greatly improved the sound. Of course, they are now getting away from being stock looking (or sounding) Klipschorns. I think I've reached the limit on how far I can modify K-Horns, although I do have another set of bass bins and another project in mind.

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Marty McFly " That's heavy Doc".

Dr. Brown " There's that word again,heavy. Why is everything so heavy in the future. Is there something wrong with gravity?"

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1 hour ago, CECAA850 said:

Not possible on the low end with one 12" woofer.  I'd like to see a response graph.  Statements like that make pretty much everything every thing else you say unbelievable.

 

EDIT, never mind the response graph, if that's what it showed then whoever made it either forged the info, was incompetent or both.  Do you have any idea what it takes for a subwoofer to be flat to 12Hz?

Two twelves, slot loaded, not one twelve. 

 

RWF had a patent on the J Modular design, you could look it up if you want to.  But it was the Premiere that had the double woofers, I seem to recall, crossover was 32 hZ. on down. 

 

Sir, you can COUNT on me telling the truth as I know it !!

 

But you do not have to believe me at all.  Its of no concern to me.  You are free to post as you like.   If you care to make corrections, be my guest.  People will discern over time. 

 

Jeff Medwin

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8 minutes ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

Sir, you can COUNT on me telling the truth as I know it !!

Then don't believe everything you read and then pass it along as fact.  Two 12's in a ported box won't go that low that flat either especially considering driver materials and technology that was available when these were produced.  There's no magic work around for Hoffmans  iron law.

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58 minutes ago, Backfire said:

 

It seems like a bit of stretch, to generalise from distressed baboons listening to ultrasonic signals to saying "It is THE best basic length for audio applications."

 

This chap Fulton seems to have had a bit of a sense of humour.  Do you not think it possible that he, and also the small High End audio Manufacturer from Montana, might have been having a bit of fun pulling your leg?  Perhaps they felt you present a rather tempting target for a little gentle persiflage?

 

 

No, no stretch at all, if YOU had done his lab research back then, and knew what he knew about the subject.

 

None of my Mentors would mislead me.  People such as Robert Fulton, and Dennis Fraker are OUTSTANDING individuals, who are Christians, who walk the walk !!  William Z. Johnson and Robert Fulton attended the same church in Minneapolis together.  Their word is always always GOOD. 

 

I was skeptical, just like you !!  When I attended the first seminar and met  Mr. Fulton, about 1978 in Mission Bay Audio, San Diego, I said to myself "  This guy is either a fake, or he is the VERY BEST person "I" have ever met, in the entire audio field.  I should NOT ignore him, and I now have GOT to find out what he is ".  Over the next ten years, I found out he was for real.  My Montana Mentor has proven himself to me in audio, consistently,  for over thirty years now.  Superb people, both. 

 

Jeffrey Medwin

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1 minute ago, CECAA850 said:

Then don't believe everything you read and then pass it along as fact.  Two 12's in a ported box won't go that low that flat either especially considering driver materials and technology that was available when these were produced.  There's no magic work around for Hoffmans  iron law.

 

It was a slot loaded box, and I do not know you, or your qualifications, but I can and do believe Mr. Fulton !!

 

What is obvious in science, is not always true !!!  

 

Jeff Medwin

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6 minutes ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

None of my Mentors would mislead me.  People such as Robert Fulton, and Dennis Fraker are OUTSTANDING individuals, who are Christians...

 

Jeffrey Medwin

 

I think it might be the case that some Christians have a sense of humour too.  I do think that leg-pulling is the most charitable explanation for why they might have said these things...

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Just now, Backfire said:

 

I think it might be the case that some Christians have a sense of humour too.  I do think that leg-pulling is the most charitable explanation for why they might have said these things...

 

Just now, Backfire said:

 

I think it might be the case that some Christians have a sense of humour too.  I do think that leg-pulling is the most charitable explanation for why they might have said these things...

 

 

Think whatever YOU want to think.  Be a doubting Thomas.  Its of no concern to me. I know when people are straight with me, after spending decade or more with them on a regular basis.

 

I understand your posts, and I know what end is up.

 

Thanks, 

 

Jeffrey Medwin

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2 minutes ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

 

It was a slot loaded box, and I do not know you, or your qualifications, but I can and do believe Mr. Fulton !!

 

What is obvious in science, is not always true !!!  

 

Jeff Medwin

Again, I'll ask you, do you have ANY idea what it takes for a subwoofer to be flat + - 1dB to 12Hz?  How much air has to be moved?   I can answer that for you, no.  Blindly following someone else's opinion and not having any first hand knowledge of a particular subject isn't a good thing when you start repeating what that person says.  I'm with the above sentiment that he was pulling your (as well as others) legs.  A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.

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