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bkwa1959

Rewiring Klipschorns

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I say we get Jeff together with some highly-resolving gear and have him show us what he's really capable of hearing in a blind listening test.  With both instantaneous switching and waiting several minutes between samples (like enough time to unsolder a component and solder in another [or swapping leads on one], or moving a driver/horn 1/8 inch - one that's sitting on bricks and golf balls.  With him going mobile and sitting back down, too).

 

I really, really, really want to see him pull it off.  That would be neat.  Possibly as with most who make such claims, there'll be some rationale provided why it didn't work.  Either way it turned out it would be fun.

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We could do real time soldering. I would be happy to do it -- just have to find my propane torch.

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18 minutes ago, glens said:

I say we get Jeff together with some highly-resolving gear and have him show us what he's really capable of hearing in a blind listening test.  With both instantaneous switching and waiting several minutes between samples (like enough time to unsolder a component and solder in another [or swapping leads on one], or moving a driver/horn 1/8 inch - one that's sitting on bricks and golf balls.  With him going mobile and sitting back down, too).

 

I really, really, really want to see him pull it off.  That would be neat.  Possibly as with most who make such claims, there'll be some rationale provided why it didn't work.  Either way it turned out it would be fun.

I would also like to see this, not in jest.  I'm genuinely curious.  I *know* that some people can hear things I cannot.  

 

I deal in measurable electronic things on a daily basis.  I would love to find something that shouldn't cause an audible difference that someone can definitively hear, then try to figure out by measurements what the difference is.  The right way is A/B/X double blind testing.  

 

I think this should definitely be set up somewhere, someday.

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16 minutes ago, codewritinfool said:

I would also like to see this, not in jest.  I'm genuinely curious.  I *know* that some people can hear things I cannot.  

 

I deal in measurable electronic things on a daily basis.  I would love to find something that shouldn't cause an audible difference that someone can definitively hear, then try to figure out by measurements what the difference is.  The right way is A/B/X double blind testing.  

 

I think this should definitely be set up somewhere, someday.

 

16 minutes ago, codewritinfool said:

 

 You  -  St. Louis area, me Warrensburgh, MO.  Why don't you visit me, later this year, and hear my system and new DC KT88 amp.  Bring ANY amp you care to, to A-B.   Be fun to meet you !!  Do you know amp audio builder, Willie Rivers Jr in Saint Louis??   

 

When you disturb wiring on a great system, unplug RCA jacks, turn amps on and off, it takes hours for things to settle back to max, usually overnight !!

 

Jeffrey Medwin

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6 minutes ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

When you disturb wiring on a great system, unplug RCA jacks, turn amps on and off, it takes hours for things to settle back to max, usually overnight !!

 

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Some of us just get lucky and have great sounding stereos with regular speaker wires. I am one of those lucky audio enthusiasts, but I do enjoy reading about wires and the pursuit of the ultimate connection.

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47 minutes ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

When you disturb wiring on a great system, unplug RCA jacks, turn amps on and off, it takes hours for things to settle back to max, usually overnight !!

 

So the failure rationale (if that above could be so considered - I, for one, consider it utter hogwash) precedes the test?

 

How can one possibly compare changes if they must wait so long between iterations?  Do any creatures really have sufficient aural memory to do that?

 

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13 minutes ago, glens said:

Do any HUMAN creatures really have sufficient aural memory to do that?

NO

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1 hour ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

When you disturb wiring on a great system, unplug RCA jacks, turn amps on and off, it takes hours for things to settle back to max, usually overnight !!

So when I stagger off to bed and forget to turn the amp off it is a good thing!

I knew it, I just knew it.

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I know, lets eliminate the wires and go to Bluetooth.

JJK

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I have three really well recorded CDs that I use for listening tests. I've been using them since the mid 80s. Changes are pretty obvious to me, even overnight. But I'm talking crossovers and equipment -- not wire. The only time I heard a difference with wire was when I tried some five 9 silver speaker cables.

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1 minute ago, Deang said:

I have three really well recorded CDs that I use for listening tests. I've been using them since the mid 80s. Changes are pretty obvious to me, even overnight. But I'm talking crossovers and equipment -- not wire. The only time I heard a difference with wire was when I tried some five 9 silver speaker cables.

 

 

Similarly, I have about seven CDs which I use in my Blu-Ray player ( Pioneer Elite BDP-09FD) , into my amp, to evaluate amp, capacitor, and wiring changes in and past the amp.  It takes time, to do a good job, but we humans are capable of that.   It takes months sometimes, to fully develop an amp.   That is why I drove to Montana and back last month, to evaluate and make changes to how the new KT88 SE DC amp design played MUSIC.  Not an O-Scope trace. On music !!   

 

For the last year, I have been using NO attenuation, coming out of the Elite Blu-Ray player, through just one set of interconnects, directly into the amp,. This eliminates the second set of interconnects plus losses associated with any attenuator.    I have gone from a 6005 Finals tube, ( small, like a 6AQ5 ) to a single KT88 Finals tube recently.  Its to a point where I must now add the Attenuator for sure !! 

 

Jeff Medwin

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1 hour ago, glens said:

 

So the failure rationale (if that above could be so considered - I, for one, consider it utter hogwash) precedes the test?

 

How can one possibly compare changes if they must wait so long between iterations?  Do any creatures really have sufficient aural memory to do that?

 

 

 

Yes. 

 

Yes.

 

See above.

 

Jeff 

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I read this stuff and I shake my head and smile.

 

Unfortunately, some (but not most) people will see these testimonials and double-talk (IMO) and think maybe they should spend  serious money and effort on cables and warming up RCA plugs for a day etc. 

 

The reason it is unfortunate is because there are a number of effective things (grounded in engineering, science, common sense, and critical thinking) that they could easily perform to make real improvements in their systems. This silliness is only side-tracking real improvements. 

 

Good luck,

-Tom

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2 hours ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

 

 You  -  St. Louis area, me Warrensburgh, MO.  Why don't you visit me, later this year, and hear my system and new DC KT88 amp.  Bring ANY amp you care to, to A-B.   Be fun to meet you !!  Do you know amp audio builder, Willie Rivers Jr in Saint Louis??   

 

When you disturb wiring on a great system, unplug RCA jacks, turn amps on and off, it takes hours for things to settle back to max, usually overnight !!

 

Jeffrey Medwin

 

At the moment there is a family member's medical condition that prevents me from traveling more than about 30 minutes from home.  I would love to take you up on that, though, and thank you for the offer.  I also think that you and I doing an A-B-X test is not sufficient.  We need at least another individual, perhaps more than that.  If I'm there, I don't want to know which is A or B or X.  I want a neutral party to do that and log results.  We need enough tests so that you are certain of your answers.  It shouldn't be too hard if things are plain to hear, as you say.  My opinion does not matter; I've already stated that I know some people can hear things I cannot.  What I'm interested in things you think sound superior, and I'm interested in enough blind testing such that statistically it will differentiate facts from random chance.

 

The hours or overnight stipulation is not too realistic, so let's think about an ABX test that can be switched at will without delays or downtime.  Surely if things are day-and-night, we can devise some tests that fit the bill.

 

Thanks again for the invite.

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2 hours ago, PrestonTom said:

   

 

there are a number of effective things (grounded in engineering, science, common sense, and critical thinking) that they could easily perform to make real improvements in their systems. This silliness is only side-tracking real improvements. 

 

Good luck,

-Tom

  

 

Tom, 

 

You got it right.  I will tell you what the worst offender IMHO is,  and where the biggest improvements can and do truly need to be made :

                                         

                                             Tube Amplifiers for High Efficiency Speakers .

 

I have been personally working on this problem since the early 1980s, and I can tell you, this is the area most needing improvement in 99% of high efficiency audio systems on the face of this earth..

 

 

The tube amps, and not the speakers, are the REAL turkeys,  and in most need of improvement.   Its been that way for a long time !

 

Jeff Medwin

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When doing incremental stuff I've found that a change for the better often times necessitates change back "for the better" at a later point.  There comes a time when you have to acknowledge that "hearing" is itself a moving target.  At least I've acknowledged that mine is.

 

If I can't hear two very close options with near instantaneous switching between them then I'm wasting my time trying to choose which I prefer.  If I have to wait hours or days between them, then forget it.  Likewise if it takes hours or days of listening to "generally perceive" a difference a change makes, then I know it's not worth my time to dick with it.  I know my hearing (aural memory) is not stable enough to chase minute increments over time.

 

I fully realize that such acuity as being discussed, while outside my grasp, must certainly be more within the grasp of some folks.  However, when utterly outlandish claims are made, either in addition, support, or especially as a basis for the ability and/or results, credibility goes right out the window, regardless.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

I have been personally working on this problem since the early 1980s

 

I hope you have a day job or, a rich wife!! (both would be nice too!!)

 

:emotion-19:

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2 hours ago, codewritinfool said:

 

At the moment there is a family member's medical condition that prevents me from traveling more than about 30 minutes from home.  I would love to take you up on that, though, and thank you for the offer.  I also think that you and I doing an A-B-X test is not sufficient.  We need at least another individual, perhaps more than that. 

 

Thanks again for the invite.

 Hello, 

 

 From late Q4 2019 on, you and any of your friends would always be warmly welcomed, and it would be fun to meet you.  

 

I have my VOTTS set up,  ( A7-8s)  after several years, finally,  to where I am happy with them, and the new KT88 DC SE amp looks like it will have me quite satisfied. 

 

I have work to do , to have friends listen.  I need to repair my System Attenuator.  Priority number one.

 

I then have to replace a broken Phono RIAA EQ, with something decent, that I can afford.  Maybe build one. 

 

I have a decent turntable, arm, and 13 Fulton ( conical stylus  ) moving coil cartridges.  What a shame,  over 10.000 L.P.s,  but a unrepairable RIAA EQ !!  

 

Been using the top-of-the-line Pioneer BDP-09FD Blu-Ray player, which is decent enough.

 

You stated this as an idea :   " We need at least another individual, perhaps more than that. "   I agree, but its not always  easy to A-B things.  ( If it is BLOWING you away, there is less need to A-B or to prove - anything. !! )   Look what I put together, about a week or two ago, where we all went to Montana -  just to hear audio gear, amps mostly.  

 

                     https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/185504-montana-directly-coupled-2a3-amps-versus-missouri-kt88s-in-sepentode-zero-nfb/

 

Jeffrey Medwin

 

 

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