bi-wire speaker connections

[jefnel1]

I have a set of RF-3's and a RC-3. Would bi-wiring these speakers really make a difference in sound? I currently have them connected with the default gold bridge connectors. Would it make sense to replace these bridge connectors with speaker wire? Or, just wire each terminal independently back to the receiver?

Can anyone that has experience with these connections give me an example of the sound differences? I would appreciate it.

[Ray Garrison]

PhilH posted a note someplace in here, recently... can't find it...

anywho, I think he said that removing the flat gold colored strip and either biwiring or using good wire to connect the two sets of posts would improve the sound.

This is a highly subjective area, and there's really no way to tell if you're going to think (a) there's a difference, and ( if so, whether it's a good thing or a bad thing without you trying it yourself.

Ray

[boa12]

yes the majority seem to say it makes an audible difference & klipsch did make some of their newer speaks biwirable for a reason. the con i've heard, but certainly not yet tested, is that it could put more strain on your amp/receiver. with my low current sony, that's been more than enough to keep me away from it.

i did replace the gold straps w/ 12awg wire though, & thought i noticed a slight improvement, or did I?

figured that was a nice compromise for me so now i can sleep

in sum: lot of variables involved

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Klipsch KLF-30 (front), KLF-C7, Cornwall I (rear)

Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer

Monsterbass 400 sub interconnects & Monster Z-12 cable

Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver

Sony DVP-C650D cd/dvd player

Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv

Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr

Technics dual cassette deck

Technics direct drive turntable

Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box

rock on!

[T2K]

I replaced those pretty gold stamped jumper bars on my KSP300's with 12ga. solid copper that set me back $.08 a foot.I personally could tell no difference in the sound quality.It did however make a LARGE psychological difference in how I thought the

rear of my speakers looked.I buffed up the gold bars and replaced them on my speakers.

Keith

Boa12, why don't you just eyeball E-Bay and pick your bad self out one of those like new Acurus 200X3's that go for around $550 or so?

Those 30's would really dance!

[boa12]

LOL - funny response K - you're a gas!

u know i'm eyeing new amplitude. got this '75 kenwood 160WX2 laying around 2. would make a great power amp but the thing's huge. damn sony has no preouts either. though i guess there's a way w/ the tape out jacks.

thanks for the tip! u are right on!

[decibel man]

I do just love this board. It is people like boa and TTK that make this a form of entertainment. Jef, I can hear a difference in the biwiring of my three front speakers, but I cannot hear a difference in the latested terminals that I have decided to use. The is not what you want for your speakers.

Just my two cents!

jt

[Edklipsch]

I bi-wired my KLF-30's and 20's with an ATI 1505 power amp and didn't notice any diff. So I put it back to normal. Also, used your basic Monster Cable spkr wire and the MC "M- series" spkr wire and couldn't tell. We all have different ears.

[T2K]

ED, how about giving us the rundown on the ATI1505.Lots of us have inquiring minds(we want to know).Did you power the KLF's with something other than the ATI and if so what were the differences in sound quality?Could you tell a difference in the dynamics of the Legends using the ATI amp? What about the differences in the sound of the 20's and 30's

say running the same power (150 watts)and the same amp thru em.Have you done an A/B test for sound diffences in the 20's and 30's? Inquiring minds want to know!

Keith

[jefnel1]

Wow! Thanks everyone for the most insightful information. I will try replacing the gold bridge with 14ga speaker wire. That is what I have everywhere else. What I should do is just enjoy my HT system and stop analyzing it for weaknesses. I guess I am just a perfectionist. Everyone on this board has such good ideas and knowledge. It's great to bounce questions off of everyone.

Thanks!

[Edklipsch]

I do know the ATI gave a better sound than my old Carver TFM-24, 250/375wpc. Also used an Adcom 7300 as loaner for ATI, only difference I noticed was not being able to clip the ATI. Always lit up clip leds on Adcom. I seem to prefer the sound of the 20's, but, I just like the size of the 30's.

It seems the bass is better w/20's, and the sound smoother (whatever that means). Really haven't done critical listening. My mind can't seem to retain what I listened to earlier for comparison.

[T2K]

ED, thanks for the reply.

Seems I remember reading somewhere years ago that size doesn't matter,how you drive what you've got is more important.Don't remember where I read that.

Keith

[djk]

>>mdeneen

Here's a theory, or maybe just an opinion:

Bi-wiring (that is using one amp) MUST be worse than single wiring for this reason: The HF and LF networks are in parallel - connected by the short straps.

When you remove the straps and add say, 15ft of speaker wire to replace the strap, you are adding MORE resistance than the strap has to reproduce the EXACT same circuit. Adding series resistance is universally bad. This does not say the sound won't change, because it probably will - - but not in a good way.<< The difference in resistance is not what it is about.If anything the extra wire should be viewed as being in parallel with the main wire and thus decreases the total series resistance.

>>Probably makes more sense to just replace the straps with good speaker wire. But again, it's hard to see what is accomplished because inside the box is all kinds of skinny wire and PC traces, which can't be any worse than the 2-inch strap.<< Again the resistance isn't the point.

>>Using the terminals to Bi-amp (use TWO amps) is however, potentially very beneficial, because you can add more amplifier power, and you can assign amps by sound quality to LF and HF individually. (Downside, you need level control on the amps).Those SET lovers, for example, can easily drive the daylights out of the horns with 5W, and then add an old NAD or ADCOM or Sony or what have you to the bottoms where all the power get's sucked. Remember, the power requirements from the amp is inversely proportional to the frequency, so this is what drains the smaller amps.<< Now we are starting to get somewhere.Unless you are using an electronic crossover you are not increasing power in any meaningful way by adding two amps.Since both amps are driven by the exact same input signal they put out the exact same output signal.The amp that sees no load in the bass will have a fraction of a dB more power reserve in the power supply assuming that the supply is not regulated(a reasonable assumption in mid-fi).Even though there is no load as far as the current is concerned the amp still clips at the same point because the voltage is still there in the input signal.In a real bi-amp setup the electronic crossover removes the out of band input voltage so the amplifier does not have to amplify it.On a complex signal like music the voltages add. A 28V amp is 100W at 8 ohms.With an electronic crossover and two 28V amps a music signal of 56V may be reproduced.This 56V would be 400W in a uno-amp system.Paralleling the input of two amps without benefit of an electronic crossover is a uno-amp set up as far as the peak signal swing is concerned.From now on I will refer to this as a duo-amp set up so as to distinguish it from a bi-amp set up.Unlike a bi-amp set up a duo-amp set up does not allow you to use a smaller amp on the high end.With an electronic crossover on your Cornwalls(for instance)a 5W amp on the high end would keep up wih a 100W amp on the bass.In a duo-amp set up the full range signal fed into the 5W amp will cause clipping at uhh,5W.Plus maybe 1dB due to the increased dynamics from the unregulated power supply.Call it 5W + 1dB = 6.25W.In a bi-amp set up the 10dB of high frequency attenuation in the passive crossover is bypassed.There is less program material above the 600hz crossover point than below it.Because of this we can reduce our power requirement by about 3dB. 5W + 10dB + 3dB = 100W.Keeping in mind that 100W + 100W in a bi-amp set up = 400W in a uno-amp set up that means 100W + 5W bi-amped on a pair of Cornwalls = 400W uno-amped on a pair of Cornwalls.The passive crossover also has an insertion loss on the order of 1dB.That means the uno-amp set up now needs 500W to play the same volume level.What happens if we increase the high frequency amp from 5W to 20W? In the bi-amp set up as long as the high frequency is undistorted it tends to mask clipping in the low frequency amp.Measurements show that a uno-amp set up driven 6dB into clipping has more distortion than a bi-amp set up with the low frequency amp driven 14dB into clipping.That means that a 100W + 20W bi-amp set up on Cornwalls will be able to play undistorted the same volume level that a 1,000W uno-amp set up will on the same Cornwalls.A duo-amp set up with 100W + 20W will play as loud as the 20W amp + 1dB will play before the signal distorts.

>>The "Bi-Amping" seems to be a cool, flexible thing. The "Bi-Wiring" seems to be less beneficial.

mdeneen<< Now let us discuss bi-wiring vs duo-amping.Make no mistake.Duo-amping when properly done while not having the power advantages of bi-amping can still sound better than uno-amping.One of the main reasons duo-amping sounds better is because you are bi-wiring.Bi-wiring reduces intermodulation distortion caused by the resistance of the wire.In an experiment I bi-wired a pair of LaScala.Two sets of bananna plugs were used on the back of the speakers.A 6" long shorting jumper was constructed with the needed plugs.Wire lengths were on the order of 10'. The low frequency was wired with 12ga Monster Cable.The high frequency was wired with a 16ga twisted pair of silver plated teflon wire obtained surplus locally for $1 a pound (apexjr also sells it for $.14 a foot).The amplifier was the middle of the road Adcom GFA535.Removing the jumper wire was a revelation.The sound was much cleaner and more detailed.It was also much brighter. As the Adcom is a little dark sounding this was ok.Later the owner bought a better amp.With the Bryston it was a bit too much. Returning to uno-wiring made the sound collapse.Bi-wiring with a small resistive pad on the high frequency was the trick. JWG tried bi-wiring on his Belle with his McIntosh amp and had a similar experience.It was too bright.Duo-amping gives us these same benefits of bi-wiring wih two more advantages.A) level controls on the amps save us from fooling around with a resistive pad on the high frequency. reducion in intermodulation distortion in the amplifiers.While the amps still clip at the same point due to the same signal voltage being fed to them the reduction in bandwidth of the delivered current to the load reduces intermodulaion distortion.In summary.Bi-amping is best.Bi-wiring reduces intermodulation distortion in the wire. Duo-amping reduces intermodulation distorion in the amps and also gives us the reduction in intermodulation distortion that we get from bi-wiring.Some means of adjusting the levels will be required whether we bi-amp, bi-wire, or duo-amp.The point at which the amp driving the high frequency clips will determine how loud the system can play before distortion sets in.90% of the people that I have met cannot hear in any meaningful way. I have had salesmen in high end stereo salons play me their best system and not notice one side was dead.A salesman in a store in which I ran the service department would routinely hook the Klipschorns out of phase. He hated Klipsch.None of the other salesmen (or customers)ever noiced.So can YOU hear any of this.If I say no I will have a 90% chance of being right.

[forresthump]

so in a nutshell, are you guys saying that people hear differently?

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go forth & hump the world

[Audio Flynn]

This discussion continues to be inconclusive.

I like my RB5s biwired; but now I am not sure. I changed to biwire 6 months ago. I may have to go back to single wire for a while to revisit the audio quality.

I surely will replace the bars with Speaker wire.

Any Bob comments on this issue?

[juladler]

I've got a set of Klipsch 4.2 front speakers that I was hoping to bi-wire. The only problem is: it looks like they only have two connection ports (one red, one black). Would it work the same if I simply ran two wires, then jacked them both into the same speaker connection ports (so there'd be two wires going into the red port, and two into the black?)

[boa12]

no, not at all. these newer biwirable models

have 2 sets of posts & each set is connected to the different drivers in each speaker. yours aren't designed for biwiring, so you get spared the anguish

[djk]

>>This is incorrect. Two amplifiers driven by "the same input signal" will have wildly different power output curves based on their different LOAD IMPEDANCES ACROSS THE FILTER THEY ARE DRIVING.

In the setup of two amps connected to the separate bi-terminals, one is driving a low-pass and will put out all it's power in that band, and the other is driving a high-pass and will put all its power in that band. If they are driven by the same signal, one will put out 5W into the HF network, and the other will put out 100W into the LF network. That makes 105W, not 5W as you imply throughout your text.Cheers,mdeneen<< You still don't get it.If in your first remark you had mentioned using an electronic crossover in conjunction with>>Those SET lovers, for example, can easily drive the daylights out of the horns with 5W, and then add an old NAD or ADCOM or Sony or what have you to the bottoms where all the power get's sucked. Remember, the power requirements from the amp is inversely proportional to the frequency, so this is what drains the smaller amps.<<then I would not have bothered to reply.Without an electronic crossover though your remarks are wrong.If you drive the inputs of a pair of 100W amps in parallel and each amp only sees a load in the high frequency or low frequency then at the voltage clipping point of either amp the SUM of the power will still be only 100W.To use your simplification: if the amp driving the highs is only putting out 5W because there is no load at low frequency then the amp driving the low frequency is only putting out 95W because there is no load in the high frequency.The 100W amp driving 5W into the high frequency load is still at the point of clipping because of the full range signal voltage it is being driven with and the 100W amp driving 95W into the low frequency load is still at the point of clipping because it is driven with the same full range signal voltage.Bi-amping and duo-amping are two very different things.Putting the frequency dividing network AHEAD of the amplifiers makes all the difference in the world.

[jwgorman]

DJK,

So for the klipschophile on a budget, what electronic crossovers do you recommend?

JWG

[djk]

>>Whether an electronic filter is used AHEAD of the two amps, or the two separate loads each have their own passive filter AFTER the amps, the fact remains that in both cases the two loads have been SEPARTED from each other and will dissapate their own power based on the current available from their respective amplifiers. And that furthermore, a single input voltage is capable making this happen.Cheers,mdeneen<< It would take too long to explain why you are wrong.I suggest you try your idea of using a 5W amp on the tweeter and a 100W amp on the woofer through the bi-wire inputs on the speakers.Without removing the passive crossover parts and using an electronic crossover ahead of the amplifiers the 5W amp will clip 13dB before the 100W amp.Use an o-scope and see for yourself.Hint as to where your thinking went wrong: You would be right if music consisted of single sine wave tones.

[djk]

quote:

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Originally posted by jwgorman:

DJK,

So for the klipschophile on a budget, what electronic crossovers do you recommend?

JWG

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http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/general/messages/114688.html I would use a custom assembled Marchand XM16.Crossovers are easy to build.They are very hard to design if you expect the best.I have a PWK passive crossover design for mating the K55V and the K77.This covers the K/B/LS/C/H from about 1963 to 1982.It is very simple and does not use the T2A autoformer.The XM16 will do the woofer to midrange crossover.For the best sound the electrical response of the filters will look strange but the acoustical response will be smooth and the system response flat.