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Cornwall III - early bass rolloff? Solved!!


Ziggurat

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A friend of mine has a bit of a baffling situation.  A while back he purchased a new pair of Cornwall III's from a Klipsch dealer.  When I first heard them, I felt they sounded quite light in the bass department and harsh in the mids.  We worked hard to treat the room and sorted out the midrange brashness, but there was still a real feeling of and absence of bass to carry the music along.  The room is square and less than ideal - you do hear more bass against the ceiling and in the corners of the room.  More treatment is necessary.  With some very basic measuring gear, the bass appears to peak at 60hz, and then fall off a cliff - almost nothing below 60hz.  Measuring in the room corners shows an increase in bass amplitude (I hope that is the right word), but no increase in measurable bass below 60hz.

 

A second set of Cornwall III's became available to him with a different finish.  These measured identically.  

 

We brought this pair to my house and measured them in my room, which has traditionally been pretty bass-friendly.  They definitely seemed more reinforcing in my room, but still with the very sharp drop-off below 60hz.  My testing gear is very rudimentary, however my Altec 19's by comparison show plenty of bass down to their peaky 40hz tuning, then lower levels down to about 32hz, tested on the same gear.  Side by side, there is no comparison - the Altecs are able to set my whole house alive with bass, whereas the Cornwalls seem like a bookshelf speaker by comparison.

 

We have tried literally dozens of room placement options  (corners, walls, open space, etc etc), different amps - Leben, LFD, Yamaha, Prima Luna, cables, sources, you name it. 

 

Everything we read suggests the Cornawalls are phenomenal bass speakers - is there something I might be misunderstanding here?  As it stands, another friends KLF10's with Crites crossovers seem to offer a more cohesive and driving sort of a sound. 

 

Your help and guidance to work through this is greatly appreciated.

 

 

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I wanted to say, we are not headbangers either, and don't identify with 'louder is better' type attitude. I don't believe what we are looking for is anything beyond printed specs and reasonable expectation of a relatively large-format speakers with 15" drivers on board.

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1 hour ago, Ziggurat said:

Everything we read suggests the Cornawalls are phenomenal bass speakers - is there something I might be misunderstanding here?

Yes, too small of a room perhaps? Using a sub?   Getting phase cancellation?   I have had them in my room, which isn't all that large and they thunder.   Possibly one woofer out of phase?   You sure both woofers are on and didn't get unplugged somehow in shipping?  Corner load them as well. Report back and see if that helps at all?   Good luck 

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Woofers are in phase and working fine. his room is 45 square meters, mine is 24 square meters.  Keep in mind this has been experienced across two pairs of Cornwall III's too.

 

Tried corner loading.  No Sub in the system.  

 

Very confusing.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Ziggurat said:

Woofers are in phase and working fine. his room is 45 square meters, mine is 24 square meters.  Keep in mind this has been experienced across two pairs of Cornwall III's too.

 

Tried corner loading.  No Sub in the system.  

 

Very confusing.

 

 

What are you powering them with?  How far away is the listening position?   What are you using to judge their low frequency extension?  I'll tell you my experience is completely opposite of yours. In my room, I had to pull them out from the back wall /corner a little bit to even put the tonal balance.   They shook my couch approx 13 feet away at moderate volumes.   With movies, they could be too bass heavy. I certainly wouldnt call the mids or treble harsh and I listened with the grilles off usually.   I only powered them with roughly 100± watt solid state amps.   With electronic music, bass can get downright silly when my guests would come over and many were very impressed overall... Hope you get your issue sorted.... Never felt that they were bass shy with any type of music I listened to, just a touch slow and sloppy in the bass (thickened the bass up if you will). 

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Sorry; no help ... have a set and no problem with bass ... easily down to 34Hz (@ -3dB) :D  Will keep on trying to find out "why." :( Only suggestion I have is to hook up the woofers directly and see what happens .....

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Just now, Westcoastdrums said:

What are you powering them with?  How far away is the listening position?   What are you using to judge their low frequency extension?  I'll tell you my experience is completely opposite of yours. In my room, I had to pull them out from the back wall /corner a little bit to even put the tonal balance.   They shook my couch approx 13 feet away at moderate volumes.   With movies, they could be too bass heavy. I certainly wouldnt call the mids or treble harsh and I listened with the grilles off usually.   I only powered them with roughly 100± watt solid state amps.   With electronic music, bass can get downright silly when my guests would come over and many were very impressed overall... Hope you get your issue sorted.... Never felt that they were bass shy with any type of music I listened to, just a touch slow and sloppy in the bass (thickened the bass up if you will). 

 

Fascinating stuff.

 

Amps we have used:  Leben CS300 (15wpc tube), Leben CS600 (28wpc tube),  Prima Luna DHPP (75 wpc tube),  Yamaha AS300 (100+ wpc SS),  Leben integrated SS amp and others.

 

As mentioned, very basic measuring tools.  However they fairly broadly mirror the listening experience.   

 

 

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1 hour ago, Ziggurat said:

My testing gear is very rudimentary,

Perhaps, this has something to do with the harshness and bass shyness(although you said, you tried several others...) ? When I sold my pair and demoed them to buyer, he almost didn't buy them as, they sounded exactly as what you are describing here with a bottom of the line, old Yamaha stereo receiver. They sounded AWFUL.   Feed them garbage (low quality mp3) and they sounded like garbage (almost unlistenable)....

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Just now, Westcoastdrums said:

Perhaps, this has something to do with the harshness and bass shyness(although you said, you tried several others...) ? When I sold my pair and demoed them to buyer, he almost didn't buy them as, they sounded exactly as what you are describing here with a bottom of the line, old Yamaha stereo receiver. They sounded AWFUL.   Feed them garbage (low quality mp3) and they sounded like garbage (almost unlistenable)....

 

Hopefully, I have highlighted that we are using high quality gear that performs as expected with other speakers.  

 

There is quire simply no bass below 60hz to carry the music along.  They sound like bookshelf speakers. It is just bizarre - we cannot reproduce the performance that others so readily seem to experience with the Cornawalls.

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5 minutes ago, Westcoastdrums said:

Good luck with my man.... Sounds like you guys have given it a good go around. Maybe someone else here will be of more use.   

 

Thanks mate yeah me too.  This one has me scratching my head.  

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8 hours ago, Ziggurat said:

There is quire simply no bass below 60hz to carry the music along.  They sound like bookshelf speakers. It is just bizarre - we cannot reproduce the performance that others so readily seem to experience with the Cornawalls.

 

What happens when you hook one up "out of phase"?

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What source are you using MP3's, DVD Player, turntable?  Amplifier's are only one part of the equation, preamp type?  I do not see that mentioned or the music type your system is only as good as the weakest link.  Have you verified the polarity of the speaker wire perhaps reverse one and see if there is any difference.  So quick to blame the speakers when there are so many other variables at play.

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Pretty sure I asked all of these questions above and didn't get a response.... If you play one speaker at a time and bass improves significantly, it is liwlly polarity is reversed internally in one speaker.  I did ask about source quality as well (not just Amplifier) and what type of music is being played to determine that Cornwalls with large internal cabinet volume and a 15" woofer sound like Bookshelf speakers.  Do you have the ability to run then in a little (turn them up a bit and leave) to give the woofers a chance to get moving? 

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Guys, thanks for the responses. 

 

Look, not to sound like I'm being unappreciative, but the reason I haven't covered over all the questions you have raised is because, well, we know what we are doing with audio gear (mostly!) and have good equipment, source material, and reliable benchmarks for comparison. We have tested phasing etc as fundamental starting points.

 

We are absolutely not 'so quick to blame the speakers', having swapped out all gear numerous times to arrive here.  I wasn't so much looking for a how-to on solving speaker problems as much I was wondering what other people's experiences were with the Cornwalls - if others had had similar experiences.  Perhaps I worded my original post poorly.

 

Having now seen the issue across two pairs of Cornwalls, and with all comments here and elsewhere, plus all other facets having been examined, I am left believing that there must be some sort of cancellation happening due to the acoustic behavior of the room. It is just possible that other speakers don't excite this response in this room

 

We are going to try adding some serious bass traps in the corners and see if we can't improve the responses. I will report back. 

 

Thanks again.

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