Forte w/ SS or Heresy w/ tubes?

[glens]

Last night I was listening to my Forte IIIs and some obscure track came on (I'll try to remember to look and see what it was - I ripped all my CDs to flac and the control point was on "shuffle all").

 

There was something going on way down low.  Definitely felt rather than heard.  I wanna say it was a Martina McBride (sp?) song, so no pipe organ or anything like that.  At any rate, even if there weren't a nickel's worth of difference between the current Heresy and Forte otherwise, whatever it was going on would've (had to have) gone unnoticed with the Heresys.

 

And my Fortes sound just as great at any volume. 

[dtel]

Not with the Forte lll's but have the same thing going on right now, it's a different or redone recording from the Average White band, the song is Cut The Cake. some of the bass is going really low, the sub is on and it's well in sub range. Not bad but definitely different. 

 

There is another song that has just a thump every once in a while kind of randomly it's an old song, Etta James called At Last, great song but once you hear the thump you notice it every time.

 

.

[Marvel]

32 minutes ago, glens said:

 I wanna say it was a Martina McBride (sp?) song, so no pipe organ or anything like that. 

 

If you find the song, let me know. I've been surprised at what my Heresy IIs reproduce. And I like Martina McBride...

[glens]

1 hour ago, Marvel said:

 

If you find the song, let me know. I've been surprised at what my Heresy IIs reproduce. And I like Martina McBride...

 

Will do.

[glens]

Looks like it was Martina McBride, album is Evolution, 1997, song was Wrong Again.  It's not throughout the whole song, just in places.

[avguytx]

I've heard that one before.  Forgot how it goes but do recall that song and those parts. Been awhile.

[angelaudio]

On 8/24/2019 at 11:01 AM, CECAA850 said:

Have you heard the Forte 3s?

 

I should have mentioned I was referring to the Forte III. I personally love Klipsch speakers in general and I really love horns. I get that much of what others talk about when comparing the Heresy and Forte is bass extension. I agree, the Heresy's do not go as deep. The issue I get myself is the larger box acoustics or perhaps, wider opening of the high and midrange driver on the Forte III is what doesn't seem to be getting addressed and how it affects the sound of voices and brass instruments for the highs and mids. Where I tend to have an issue is in the highs and mids of the Forte III compared to the Heresy II's I have. I'm not a specialist on box acoustics, however, the sound I get from the Forte III is that the voices and brass instruments almost have a hallow like, resonance to them. It's like putting a larger horn on the front of a trumpet and it loses that tight, controlled sound a trumpet has. I mainly listen to jazz, classical and vocals. I've attached some notes from a similar forum to explain the box size issue I was having while comparing a pair of B&W speaker.

 

For example, I compared the B&W 601 S3 to the 602 S3. The 602 is a bigger cabinet and slightly larger bass driver. When I played Louis Armstrong and Ella Fitzgerald, the trumpet and voices clearly sounded cleaner, tighter and more controlled in the smaller 601 speaker. In the 602, the trumpet and voice were less coherent and less controlled. They sounded loose and less coherent. It was only while playing large classical orchestra where more bass extension took place where the larger 602 gave a larger overall impact or effect on the sound.

 

That was when I completely lost interest in the Forte series altogether and decided it wasn't going to be an improvement over my Heresy's. I genuinely think the Heresy's sound nicer than the Forte III's despite what many others say. They just sound smoother, silkier, tighter and more controlled than the Forte III to me. I had a sub which I really disliked because of the way I had to connect it to the inputs and outputs, then I discovered the REL t5i's. I added one to each channel and said OMFG! The sound combined with the Heresy's I have is unlike anything I've heard in my life in any room. I have a couple of different tube amps and preamps and it just rips! I couldn't be more pleased and the way the little 8" REL's connect is the most ideal way in my opinion for stereo. It doesn't matter what I play, the Heresy's sound amazing!

 

 

 

Edited September 20, 2019 by angelaudio

[moray james]

if you are suggesting that the K700/701 of the Heresy(s) is a better horn than the horn used in the Forte 3 you would be very much mistaken and the same would hold for the drivers. You need to look elsewhere to explain your preference of a Heresy over a Forte 3 because it is not in the level of performance of the horns and drivers. You may simply prefer the sound of the K700/701 horn and if you do then you do but don't think that the reason is improved performance of the horn/driver combination. Enjoy what you like and be happy especially if what you really like saves you money.

 

[angelaudio]

I was referring to the Heresy II in my post. That would be the K-76 tweeter and a K-53 mid yes? That's okay though because I'm assuming you'll say that's even more inferior to the K-107 anyway. So, let's just have a look at the Heresy III since that's what you're referring to. According to Klipsch, the Heresy III and Cornwall III each use the same K-107 tweeter and K-53 midrange, yes? So, from what I gather from all the reviews, it's pretty much an overwhelming vote that the Cornwall III, which uses the same tweeter and mid as a Heresy III is practically superior in just about every regard to the Forte III and yet the Heresy with the same high and mid driver as the Cornwall is somehow inferior to the Forte III. How does this make any sense? So, perhaps it's the design and size of the cabinet influencing these decisions or maybe too many individuals who conduct these reviews have placebo. 

 

Personally, I think the newer Forte III sounds hallow and harsh compared to the older Heresy II and Forte II. I'm not in the camp that so many are led to believe that horns are harsh, so don't get me wrong. I absolutely love horn speakers. I run a Dynaco ST-70 Bob Latino tube amp with 36 watts a channel and a Decware SE84UFO 2 watt Zen with my Heresy II. I have a Dynaco PAS II and Aretha preamp. These all sound absolutely spectacular with the Heresy II! Beautiful and silky smooth with each amp, not harsh. There's something odd about these Forte III's so many rave about though and I'm a bit dubious if these are really improvements. I'm really not all that much into specs since they don't always tell the truth about how something sounds. IMO, that has a lot to do with the acoustics of your room, where the speakers are placed and from where the listener is sitting.

 

In my actual profession, people often think newer is better. I don't always subscribe to that camp like so many others do. I've seen countless cases where newer is often worse, not better. Kind of reminds me of movie sequels. Maybe I'm the only one that thinks the newer drivers on the Forte III are a bit on the bright side.

 

 

Edited September 22, 2019 by angelaudio

[moray james]

so far as I can tell the motor on a K76 tweeter and the motor on a K107 tweeter are the same the diaphragms are the same size but different materials K76 is phenolic the K107 is titanium. I own both, the horns are different the horn on the K76 is an exponential the horn on the K107 is a tractrix. So far as I can tell with mine which both have titanium diaphragms installed the difference I hear is in dispersion. You are looking at diaphragm material differences in the mid drivers as well and probably diaphragm size differences as well. The mid horns are radically different K700/701 is a very old design and it is a small exponential model the mid horn in the Forte 3 is a tractrix and is very much larger and had much better polar control and to lower frequencies and I will assume considerably wider range both down and up, distortion overall will be much improved with the newer horn.

I don't put much stock in reviews they really depend upon the reviewer I like to listen for myself but I do trust what Roy says.

   I don't know a whole lot about the Forte 3 woofer it may be different from either Forte I assume that it is. I also assume it will be more similar than different. Further if the diaphragm of the Forte 3 mid driver is larger then it will have measurably lower distortion at all levels. Roy designed the Forte 2 Roy designed the Forte 3 I believe that the Forte 3 will be a much better loudspeaker than the Forte 2. Having owned Heresy built in the last couple of months prior to H2 and then having two sets of H3 I know what kind of a performance jump the H3 crossover brought to the Heresy 3 and would expect a similar jump in the Forte 3. These are my thoughts and opinions.

When you say you think the F3 sounds hollow and harsh compared to H2 I have no way to know what you are hearing there are so many variables. I will say that a H2 stock uses phenolic mid and tweeter diaphragms the F3 uses I believe a poly mid diaphragm (possibly Kapton ) and a titanium tweeter. I will say that some people (and this is a fairly small percentage) are bothered by the fundamental structural resonance of titanium diaphragms and they cannot listen to them for very long. It is entirely possible you belong to that group. Phenolic diaphragms are smooth soft and round sounding very relaxed  and easy to listen to. There are a lot of reasons you like and dislike what you do but as I said the horns are not of poorer quality and aside for the comment that I made about some not being able to listen to titanium neither are the drivers. In the end it all comes down to what you like even it what you like is more distortion (which is something which has been studied) well that is what you like so what enjoy what you like search it out and enjoy it!

[glens]

5 hours ago, angelaudio said:

... from what I gather from all the reviews, it's pretty much an overwhelming vote that the Cornwall III, which uses the same tweeter and mid as a Heresy III is practically superior in just about every regard to the Forte III and yet the Heresy with the same high and mid driver as the Cornwall is somehow inferior to the Forte III. How does this make any sense?

 

It doesn't make much sense when you state it that way.  I guess I've consistently missed those remarks you suggest are "overwhelmingly" present, however.

[glens]

13 minutes ago, moray james said:

... a H2 stock uses phenolic mid and tweeter diaphragms the F3 uses I believe a poly mid diaphragm (possibly Kapton )...

 

Haven't actually seen mine but understand them to be Ti like the tweeters.

[garyrc]

Forte III and the NAD.  This answer is firmly grounded in my unsubstantiated biases.

 

12 x 12, or anything perfectly square can be a problem.  If it seems to be, try putting a heavy bookcase, full of books, across the back of the room, spaced out from the wall a bit, and screwed to the floor (once you establish that it is a sonic improvement).  I did have an 11 x 12 room that was O.K., once.

[moray james]

30 minutes ago, glens said:

 

Haven't actually seen mine but understand them to be Ti like the tweeters.

what size throat is your F3 mid horn? can you take a look and see what the diaphragm material is? The CW4 is a polyamide diaphragm given the issues with the sound of ti especially in the mid and the fact that Klipsch used a plastic mid diaphragm in thCW4 I would imagine they would also use a plastic mid in the F3 would make sense anyway. Perhaps some much more knowledgeable person than myself can tell us with certainty the diaphragm material of both drives (F3 and CW4) along with the diaphragm diametre and the driver exit diametre?

[MechEngVic]

Whichever set of speakers you go with, as long a they're Klipsch, you'll be happy. If you want to stick your amp in a cabinet and forget about it, get a SS. If you want to have an interactive love affair with the most beautiful looking and sounding piece of audio equipment you will ever own, get a tube amp.

[mikebse2a3]

3 hours ago, moray james said:

what size throat is your F3 mid horn? can you take a look and see what the diaphragm material is? The CW4 is a polyamide diaphragm given the issues with the sound of ti especially in the mid and the fact that Klipsch used a plastic mid diaphragm in thCW4 I would imagine they would also use a plastic mid in the F3 would make sense anyway. Perhaps some much more knowledgeable person than myself can tell us with certainty the diaphragm material of both drives (F3 and CW4) along with the diaphragm diametre and the driver exit diametre?

 

 

 

[angelaudio]

On 9/22/2019 at 4:20 PM, moray james said:

so far as I can tell the motor on a K76 tweeter and the motor on a K107 tweeter are the same the diaphragms are the same size but different materials K76 is phenolic the K107 is titanium. I own both, the horns are different the horn on the K76 is an exponential the horn on the K107 is a tractrix. So far as I can tell with mine which both have titanium diaphragms installed the difference I hear is in dispersion. You are looking at diaphragm material differences in the mid drivers as well and probably diaphragm size differences as well. The mid horns are radically different K700/701 is a very old design and it is a small exponential model the mid horn in the Forte 3 is a tractrix and is very much larger and had much better polar control and to lower frequencies and I will assume considerably wider range both down and up, distortion overall will be much improved with the newer horn.

I don't put much stock in reviews they really depend upon the reviewer I like to listen for myself but I do trust what Roy says.

   I don't know a whole lot about the Forte 3 woofer it may be different from either Forte I assume that it is. I also assume it will be more similar than different. Further if the diaphragm of the Forte 3 mid driver is larger then it will have measurably lower distortion at all levels. Roy designed the Forte 2 Roy designed the Forte 3 I believe that the Forte 3 will be a much better loudspeaker than the Forte 2. Having owned Heresy built in the last couple of months prior to H2 and then having two sets of H3 I know what kind of a performance jump the H3 crossover brought to the Heresy 3 and would expect a similar jump in the Forte 3. These are my thoughts and opinions.

When you say you think the F3 sounds hollow and harsh compared to H2 I have no way to know what you are hearing there are so many variables. I will say that a H2 stock uses phenolic mid and tweeter diaphragms the F3 uses I believe a poly mid diaphragm (possibly Kapton ) and a titanium tweeter. I will say that some people (and this is a fairly small percentage) are bothered by the fundamental structural resonance of titanium diaphragms and they cannot listen to them for very long. It is entirely possible you belong to that group. Phenolic diaphragms are smooth soft and round sounding very relaxed  and easy to listen to. There are a lot of reasons you like and dislike what you do but as I said the horns are not of poorer quality and aside for the comment that I made about some not being able to listen to titanium neither are the drivers. In the end it all comes down to what you like even it what you like is more distortion (which is something which has been studied) well that is what you like so what enjoy what you like search it out and enjoy it!

 

I like and appreciate your constructive response here. Perhaps it's the phenolic vs titanium that's the issue? Sometimes it's difficult to find the words to describe the sounds we hear to help others interpret what's trying to be conveyed. I mostly listen to jazz like Bill Evan's, Louise Armstrong, Chet Baker and many more. I just find that the Heresy has very sincere sound characteristics that work nicely with the kind of music I enjoy. They're extremely pleasant to listen to and combined with my pair of 8" REL t5i subs which I don't always use, the deeper  bass with sound tracks is quite astonishing . Out of curiosity since you mentioned phenolic tweeters, do you have an opinion as to why they use phenolic tweeters in the newer Klipschorn's? I just find it interesting that Klipsch uses titanium in the HIII and FIII and use phenolic in the Khorn's.

Edited September 24, 2019 by angelaudio

[angelaudio]

On 9/22/2019 at 4:30 PM, glens said:

 

It doesn't make much sense when you state it that way.  I guess I've consistently missed those remarks you suggest are "overwhelmingly" present, however.

 

Okay, what I meant is that many of the reviews and online videos I've seen describe the Cornwall III as pretty much having more of everything the Forte III has.

[moray james]

2 hours ago, angelaudio said:

 Out of curiosity since you mentioned phenolic tweeters, do you have an opinion as to why they use phenolic tweeters in the newer Klipschorn's? I just find it interesting that Klipsch uses titanium in the HIII and FIII and use phenolic in the Khorn's.

probably to maintain the sonic character of the loudspeaker. I found when switching from phenolic to titanium I had to re voice my Heresy and other models (forte forte 3 KLF20)I damp the horn bodies with dynamat alongwith the horn driver assemblie inside and out installing dynamat on the pole piece and including an F-11 acoustical felt dome beneath the diaphragm and also dynamat (or Hushmat) on the terminal tab of the tweeter which really rings. this results in a very much smoother and warmer sound. Difference is dramatic and I would not listen to non modified drivers any more.