Jump to content

NEW or NOS?


MechEngVic

Recommended Posts

A comment in an earlier post got me thinking about this subject. 

 

I can only speak of my very limited experience with new vs nos tubes, and offer some thoughts, but I'd to hear from other tube gear owners.

 

I think we can all agree that there is a preference for the old famous tubes of yore, but we also know that NOS it a term used loosely by some sellers and we don't always get what we paid for. And, I believe that new production tubes have suffered in their reputation for reliability by new production problems, and many say they don't match the sound quality of the old. I think that mostly covers the controversies in a broad stroke.

 

Well at this point, having used new production tubes for a couple of years only, I can't really speak to the reliability of them, other than I have only experienced one failure in about two dozen new tubes. But NOS tubes, from several sources, even reputable ones, have had about a 1 in 5 failure rate within a short time of initial use. I've bought at least 50 NOS tubes in the last several years. Models of new and NOS tubes include: EL-34, KT-88, 6V6, 12AX7 and its derivatives, 6GH8A and its derivatives, 6C4P-EV, 5U4G, and a few others I can't remember. 

 

Except for the Blackburn-made Amperex 6GH8A's (the best sounding tube I have ever heard), the new production tubes have sounded better IMO. Now, granted, I have not spent a grand on a quad of NOS Mullard EL-34's, but I did buy a NOS set of SED Svetlana EL-34's, and the truth is, an 80.00$ quad of New production Mullard's sounded just as good at almost 1/3 the cost.

 

Here's what I think: Reliability issues with new production tubes will soon, if not already, be a thing of the past. Tube makers are working out the kinks, and they can probably do it more efficiently than could be done in the past. And because new tubes are almost exclusively used for sound reproduction, the focus is on sound quality. That was not the case in the past. And finally, given enough demand, new tube sound quality will surpass that of any and all old production tubes. Something to think about the next time you have to buy: Buying new supports new tube development and improvement.

 

I, for one, would love to see to what new levels of sound quality and reliability new tubes could be taken, by scrutinizing the old designs we love with modern testing methods and remaking them with improved production capabilities.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I appreciate your optimism and I hope it becomes a reality but not yet. I've not met a modern production 6DJ8, 12AU7, 12AX7, or 12AT7 that can compare to old school Siemens, Telefunken, Amperex, or Mullard. Not even on the same planet. Then there are rectifiers... Please find me a modern replacement for an amperex or mullard GZ34. The ones I've tried have not gone well. Just don't use them. I call them sparklers.  Don't even get me started on a modern EL84 or EL37... Sigh.... The list goes on. I hope modern tubes keep improving but they aren't there yet...

 

Then there are the triodes... There are some decent modern 2a3 and 300b out there. This might be where the most energy has been spent to get decent modern equivalents.

 

The reason old tubes command the price and respect is because they are awesome and from the glory days of Hi-Fi.  Do not ever trust a tube as NOS unless you find it and are the first to pull it from the box yourself. I've only been that lucky a few times. Seriously it took 50 to 80 years for tube knowledge to evovle. It is foolish to think we can just recreate that knowledge base in a short time... But I want to believe it will get there. Will it ever best Western Electric or Eimac...... NO....

 

 

 

 

  • Like 6
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have read that the old tubes used far superior materials in the build, contributing to their signature sound. I have a boatload of tubes, both vintage and new production. It can be a crap shoot sometimes to get good vintage tubes, not because the tubes quality is bad, but because unscrupulous sellers are selling junk tubes. I have tubes built in the 40's that sound just wonderful, attesting to their longevity. I run vintage tubes in all my tube gear, consisting of 4 tube amps and 1 tube preamp, plus a cd player with tubes.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, kevinmi said:

I have read that the old tubes used far superior materials in the build, contributing to their signature sound. I have a boatload of tubes, both vintage and new production. It can be a crap shoot sometimes to get good vintage tubes, not because the tubes quality is bad, but because unscrupulous sellers are selling junk tubes. I have tubes built in the 40's that sound just wonderful, attesting to their longevity. I run vintage tubes in all my tube gear, consisting of 4 tube amps and 1 tube preamp, plus a cd player with tubes.

 

I'm not sure it is fair to compare modern tube industry of then to now. In the hey day of tube production the industry was absolutely huge and had enormous R&D budgets. The communications indiustry just poured money into tube technology. It just isn't a fair comparison. Look at what Eimac, RCA, and Western Electric did with tubes.  I will say that EML labs is doing some amazing things with tubes but they are pricey... Elrog is on the way. 

 

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, kevinmi said:

I have read that the old tubes used far superior materials in the build, contributing to their signature sound. I have a boatload of tubes, both vintage and new production. It can be a crap shoot sometimes to get good vintage tubes, not because the tubes quality is bad, but because unscrupulous sellers are selling junk tubes. I have tubes built in the 40's that sound just wonderful, attesting to their longevity. I run vintage tubes in all my tube gear, consisting of 4 tube amps and 1 tube preamp, plus a cd player with tubes.

I have bought bad tubes from reputable dealers, and even they will admit it's hard to source true NOS tubes. The best sellers have good tube matching AND a good exchange policy. I think for us tube users that don't have tens of years of experience in finding them and the associated knowledge to do it, it's lucky when we get good ones.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, seti said:

I appreciate your optimism and I hope it becomes a reality but not yet. I've not met a modern production 6DJ8, 12AU7, 12AX7, or 12AT7 that can compare to old school Siemens, Telefunken, Amperex, or Mullard. Not even on the same planet. Then there are rectifiers... Please find me a modern replacement for an amperex or mullard GZ34. The ones I've tried have not gone well. Just don't use them. I call them sparklers.  Don't even get me started on a modern EL84 or EL37... Sigh.... The list goes on. I hope modern tubes keep improving but they aren't there yet...

 

Then there are the triodes... There are some decent modern 2a3 and 300b out there. This might be where the most energy has been spent to get decent modern equivalents.

 

The reason old tubes command the price and respect is because they are awesome and from the glory days of Hi-Fi.  Do not ever trust a tube as NOS unless you find it and are the first to pull it from the box yourself. I've only been that lucky a few times. Seriously it took 50 to 80 years for tube knowledge to evovle. It is foolish to think we can just recreate that knowledge base in a short time... But I want to believe it will get there. Will it ever best Western Electric or Eimac...... NO....

 

 

 

 

I've heard some of those GZ34 horror stories.  I am fascinated in this knowledge base you speak of. Are you saying that the methods which built the best old tubes was some how lost, or not passed on properly? Did the advent of SS make us lose so much interest in tubes that the know-how was deemed irrelevant and discarded? It seems like a great folly in retrospect.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, MechEngVic said:

I've heard some of those GZ34 horror stories.  I am fascinated in this knowledge base you speak of. Are you saying that the methods which built the best old tubes was some how lost, or not passed on properly? Did the advent of SS make us lose so much interest in tubes that the know-how was deemed irrelevant and discarded? It seems like a great folly in retrospect.

 

I'm just saying that you don't rebuid that kind of knowledge, technique, and tech overnight. Why else can't they build a proper GZ34? Isn't it just a tube? Why can't they duplicate the performance? 

 

Technology just evolved and made things cheaper and easier to build. Just sad it all didn't sound better..

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

https://youtu.be/QCksgN7kiv4

 

The video explains why NOS tubes are the only way to go!  For the past 60 years I have used NOS (of course, most were new stock back in the day!) exclusively and the reliability has been outstanding.  This includes my years doing TV, radio, and audio equipment repairs on units which were often very poorly ventilated.  

 

Maynard

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My problem with NOS is that they are supposed to be New Old Stock.  I think the majority of the time what you actually receive is UOS, Used Old Stock.  I can usually tell just by looking at the pictures of the pins.

 

But I completely agree in the difference in performance if you can manage to get GOOD old stock tubes (new or used).  They are superior for sure.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/23/2019 at 11:15 AM, seti said:

 

I'm not sure it is fair to compare modern tube industry of then to now. In the hey day of tube production the industry was absolutely huge and had enormous R&D budgets. The communications indiustry just poured money into tube technology. It just isn't a fair comparison. Look at what Eimac, RCA, and Western Electric did with tubes.  I will say that EML labs is doing some amazing things with tubes but they are pricey... Elrog is on the way. 

 

 

 

I use and love EML power and rectifier tubes in my Yamamoto Amp. I keep detailed records of all my tube usage and have good tube testers to confirm ongoing viability and to extrapolate tube life. JAC, uses some of the same tube testers and claims that they should last thousands of hours. We will see if this pans out.

 

Wb

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Wolfbane said:

 

I use and love EML power and rectifier tubes in my Yamamoto Amp. I keep detailed records of all my tube usage and have good tube testers to confirm ongoing viability and to extrapolate tube life. JAC, uses some of the same tube testers and claims that they should last thousands of hours. We will see of this pans out.

 

Wb

 

I have the EML 45 meshplates and the construction is amazing. I should compare to my stash of vintage 45s.

 

 

 

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, seti said:

 

I have the EML 45 meshplates and the construction is amazing. I should compare to my stash of vintage 45s.

 

 

 

 

 

What amp?

 

I have both the EML 45 Meshplate Balloon tube version and their Solid Plate 45's. Both sound better in my amp than a variety of NOS 45's I've tried. I don't think you'll have trouble hearing the difference between the EML and NOS 45's.

 

Wb

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, Wolfbane said:

What amp?

 

I have both the EML 45 Meshplate Balloon tube version and their Solid Plate 45's. Both sound better in my amp than a variety of NOS 45's I've tried. I don't think you'll have trouble hearing the difference between the EML and NOS 45's.

 

Wb

 

My 45s aren't NOS but test strong at least.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

^^^ IMHO, RCA made an excellent quality 2A3 ST type tube which sounds really good and puts out 3.5 WPC if you have an amp that can use both 45's and 2A3''s (plate voltage is different if my memory is still working properly on this). The key thing being the 2A3 pair must be very closely matched and test fully new.

 

Less sparkle but more bass with just that little bit more wattage. ^^^

 

Wb

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote


The standard Type 45 tube can NOT play the lower octaves of a piano with proper power and weight.  The ST Type 45 tube is subjectively thin sounding to my ear.  There also exists a very BROAD but SHALLOW suck-out in the middle midrange, extending an octave or so on either side of that, to my ear. 


 

 

This sounds like a problem with amplifier or speaker design and or pairing or major room problems. I've run old ST and Globe 45's and 2a3 mono and biplate without any of these characteristics. If this was the case I would never run a 45 of any type. Glad I haven't run into these issues.

 

 

 

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't have a dog in the NOS vs new fight.

 

As I write this I'm listening to an amp with NOS Telefunken ECC83 & GE 5814 driver tubes, and new Elrog 300B power tubes, and it sounds great!

 

My question is this -- is anyone making great new 12AU7/ECC82/5814 or 12AX7/ECC83 tubes?  I love my Elrog 300B's, but don't know of anyone making similar quality available in new driver tubes.

 

Thanks!

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, ebrandon said:

I don't have a dog in the NOS vs new fight.

 

As I write this I'm listening to an amp with NOS Telefunken ECC83 & GE 5814 driver tubes, and new Elrog 300B power tubes, and it sounds great!

 

My question is this -- is anyone making great new 12AU7/ECC82/5814 or 12AX7/ECC83 tubes?  I love my Elrog 300B's, but don't know of anyone making similar quality available in new driver tubes.

 

Thanks!

 

 

To my knowledge no one is makeing a 12A?? tube that can come close to the tele or amperex or siemens or insert vintage name here.

 

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

In my experience the last year or so.....NOS or vintage 12AX7 tubes that test new or strong, without a doubt walk all over the new production tubes I've tried. Honorable mentions go the the Psvane Treasure Series and the JJ/TESLA tubes I tried but for me it's Amperex Bugle Boys, Mullard long plates(square getters)and Telefunken smooth plates from here on out.

 

They just have "it". The new tubes....don't.

 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...