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Forte III's on the way. Need help with pre-amp


Raygun

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UPDATE 10-01-2019

 

Speakers came in about 20 min ago. I have them hooked up and listening to them ATM. I am honestly, and surprisingly blown away at how good they sound fresh out of the box. I don't understand it. I sold audio for about 11 years and never heard a speaker sound good out of the box. In fact my Thiels sounded like crap compared to some 300 dollar Tannoy Mercury bookshelves I had before the Thiels broke in. If the Forte III sound this good now, I can only imagine how well they will sound when they are broken in. 
 

WOW!

 

klipsch forteiii.jpg

 

ORIGINAL POST BELOW

 

Hello all. First post! 

I am an old Klipsch owner (Epic CF3's) and have done the "audiophile" thing with other speakers like Martin Logan, Thiel, Tannoy etc over the years. All great speakers in their own right but I missed the excitement Klipsch gave me. I have a pair of brand new Forte III's on the way and am extremely excited to get back to the music. 

Anyhow. I am on the fence as to whether these speakers will be straight audio or make it into a theater someday (Klipsch, we need a "Heritage" center). I do love a good surround set up, but if I maintain my current gear level it might be more pricy than I can afford, so focus is 2 channel ATM. 

So, here is my dilemma. I currently have a Pass Labs x150.5 amp, and a Parasound Halo P3 premap (given to me by a friend when I was in need). I am currently running Thiel CS 2.4's and when the volume is at its lowest, its still kinda loud. I mean to say I wish the volume went lower, but the next step is 0 or muted. 

My concern is how loud the speaker will be playing at the lowest volume setting due to the increased efficiency of the Forte III. I think the Thiels are 87 db efficient (or inefficient if you will). The Forte III being 99 db efficient would be considered 2x as loud at the same volume compared to the Thiels (if I remember correctly, 10 db increase is considered twice as loud by the human ear).

So, what would be a good option for a preamp? I would prefer something with a low noise floor to reduce hiss (I currently do not hear hiss from the thiels with the pass/parasound combo) and a volume control that gives me the flexibility to play at lower volumes. To give an idea, for those of you who have owned a Rotel surround preamp or receiver. You know how you have to crank the living hell out of it to get sound...that is what I am looking for. In fact, I have considered getting a used Rotel surround preamp or receiver for this set up...I just don't know what to expect in regards to quality for 2 channel audio.

Thank you all in advance for any help. I would like to solve this issue for 1500 or less if at all possible. 

NOTE: I love the sound of Tubes, but I am not looking to get into the tube world ATM. I prefer low maintenance SS setups. 

Edited by Raygun
updating post with picture
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Thanks for the welcome! I am very excited to get them. I can't say what the SPL is, but I have a tool app on my android phone and I turned the AC off, and with fridge not cycling I was getting 31 db in my living room sitting in the sweet spot. I played the song Morning by Beck at the lowest volume setting and It was hitting peaks of 46 db in the room during the chorus. 

I am sitting about 8.75 feet from the speakers and they are about 8.5' apart. 

 

room 800.jpg

 

Edited by Raygun
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On 9/24/2019 at 10:18 PM, Raygun said:

So, here is my dilemma. ...  I am currently running Thiel CS 2.4's and when the volume is at its lowest, its still kinda loud. I mean to say I wish the volume went lower, but the next step is 0 or muted. 

My concern is how loud the speaker will be playing at the lowest volume setting due to the increased efficiency of the Forte III. I think the Thiels are 87 db efficient (or inefficient if you will). The Forte III being 99 db efficient would be considered 2x as loud at the same volume compared to the Thiels ...

 

That is a dilemma.  The two systems are rated somewhat differently such that they're actually a few dB nearer each other whichever method would be used the same between them.  I believe I'd get a couple pots (or 4 if using balanced amp input) and trim the signal a bit.

 

There's a thread here somewhere started (I think) by a person going from maybe even the same Thiels to the Forte III.  Have you seen it?  I'm thinking it was about a year ago.

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1 minute ago, glens said:

 

That is a dilemma.  The two systems are rated somewhat differently such that they're actually a few dB nearer each other whichever method would be used the same between them.  I believe I'd get a couple pots (or 4 if using balanced amp input) and trim the signal a bit.

 

There's a thread here somewhere started (I think) by a person going from maybe even the same Thiels to the Forte III.  Have you seen it?  I'm thinking it was about a year ago.

 

Thanks glens! I have not seen the other post, I'll have to look for it. I am using balanced inputs. I might take a look or audition the PS audio Stellar Dac/Preamp thing. It apparently has a very low noise floor and 80 db of attenuation. 

I was going to get a pass preamp (if an x2.5 would ever go up for sale) but I was reading someone say that it did not go very low in volume. 

When I had my rotel theater receiver (used the pass for LR duty) it was amazing how quiet I could play music in that system and more impressive how much detail I could hear at extremely low volumes. 

 

I like nice gear and I love items that are built to stand the test of time. I would not consider myself the traditional "audiophile" I don't chase imaging and try to tweak my stuff to the nth degree, I just like things that sound good and that will last. I do have a preference for a very low noise floor. My first stereo was a GPX all in one thing I got when I was in 4th grade. It had so much noise and hiss from the amplifier (which I thought were from the speakers at that age) that when I got older my pet peeve became noise and hiss. 

I expect the Klipsch, due to their efficiency, to show me the weak link in my system but I am just trying to nip some of that in the bud while I wait for them to arrive. 

I know Paul from PS audio has said some negative stuff about Klipsch as a corporation, and he was wrong in many of his assertions but his company does make some descent stuff. Good thing is if I get one from them and don't like it, I have 30 days. I don't want to get it just yet though. I want to live with the Klipsch for a couple weeks first. I don't foresee myself wanting to return the Klipsch, I loved my Epic CF3's when I had them and have missed them for years.

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11 minutes ago, glens said:

I've had a pair of Forte III for coming up on a year and cannot recommend them, enough.  Fixing your problem will be a delight.  They have an almost perfect charm.

 

Trying to undo your quote, still learning how this site works. lol.

Thanks for the link! I expect what I will hear will be similar to that reviewers findings. 

 

I rarely sit and listen to music as a straight hobby anymore, its more background when I am working or playing a game or something, so imaging and all that jazz is a bit less important. I'd rather have dynamics and fun while I move around the house...but I expect that I can position the Forte III's to work for me in regards to imaging and what not. In fact, the Thiels REALLY like to breath, I mean 1/3rd of the way into the room seems to work best for them but I don't have the space for that. So, in reality the Klipsch might voice better where I can currently place speakers than the Thiels. 

Just not sure if I am going to put the Thiels in their cartons and hold on to them, or sell them. 

 

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13 minutes ago, Raygun said:

I rarely sit and listen to music as a straight hobby anymore, its more background when I am working or playing a game or something, so imaging and all that jazz is a bit less important. I'd rather have dynamics and fun while I move around the house...but I expect that I can position the Forte III's to work for me in regards to imaging and what not. 

I won't be a bit surprised if the forte's bring you back to the sweet spot for more critical listening. I find myself doing it all the time.

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What genres of music do you listen to?

 

What recording formats do you currently use?

  • Streaming (e.g., Spotify Premium)
  • LP
  • CD
  • HDCD
  • SACD
  • Pure Audio Blu-ray
  • 24bit/192kHz download
  • DSD download
  • Downloaded compressed files
  • Files ripped to NAS
  • DVD-Audio
  • DVD
  • Blu-ray
  • Ultra HD Blu-ray

Stereo only?  Multi-channel (e.g., 5.1)?

 

Do you want audio only, or the ability to play audio/video recordings such as concert videos and Hollywood movies? 

 

What formats do you want to be able to play in the future?

 

What player do you currently have?  (For example, turntable, CD player, universal player, network streamer, PC, etc.)

 

Do you currently use an outboard DAC?

 

Do you think that you want tone controls, or not?   (There’s more than one way to skin the cat in terms of tone controls.)

 

Do you require a remote volume control?

 

The reason I’m asking these questions is that if you listen to digital recordings, you might not need a preamp.  Some appliances (e.g., universal player, network streamer) have a variable output, and therefore effectively have a preamp built in.   OTOH, if you play LPs, you’ll need a suitable preamp.

 

Bottom line, your requirements for a pre-amp depend on what player(s) you will use.   What player(s) you need depends on which recording formats that you need to be able to play, which largely depends on the genres of music you want to be able listen to – now and in the future. 

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Thanks Robert!

I am pretty much a CD guy. I use MP3's in the car and phone, but I just love CD's. I am 48 so CD was just hitting early prime time as I was getting out of high school. I still buy CD's, I just really enjoy the format. 

2ch. If I need to go theater I will deal with that in the future.

I am currently using a modded Denon CD player, but that may get changed out early next year. 

I don't have a DAC

NEVER used tone controls or eq and don't plan on it.

Remote is an absolute must. 

I am leaning HEAVILY towards the PS Audio Stellar Dac/Preamp. In fact, I will order one but want to spend a couple weeks with Forte III's first to see how my parasound works out. I just learned about it yesterday. That being said. I am also looking at a McIntosh 121 if the guy can deliver on the right price. Its 2 channel section should be better than what I have now and if I decide to go to theater, it will work there too. I don't care about Atmos, so don't need the newest. 

 

But all of that being said, my OP question was not what preamp will work in my system based on my needs (I do appreciate you qualifying me however), but what preamp will have a low noise floor, and a volume control that goes very quiet with high efficiency speakers that other members have used in their systems. I can research the individual preamps on my own and determine if their feature set will work. I don't expect the community to do that work for me. I just need user experiences from folks who have systems that can play very quiet with efficient speakers with a low noise floor...and not be tubes. 

 

I should have prefaced. I sold high end for about 11 years. I can quality myself for my needs. I am more curious what others have used for preamps that simply have a low noise floor and with a volume pod that allows them to listen very quietly. 

 

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I’m afraid I can’t answer your question directly.   I collect vintage tube amps.   Two of my systems are equipped with McIntosh MX110Z – but I’m certain that’s not what you’re looking for.

 

I’m wondering if you’ve considered one of the Schiit preamps.   I swore I’d never buy one of their products because of their sophomoric company name.   However, I needed to add tone controls to my McIntosh MC240 in my TV room, because it was too bright when driven directly by my Oppo UDP-205.  (My MC225 in the same system sounds good when driven directly by my UDP-205.)  Rather than spend a LOT of money to buy a McIntosh tube preamp just for the treble control, I bought a Schiit Loki analog tone control unit, and it does a good job of attenuating the high frequencies, and I’m now enjoying my MC240.

 

I’d be interested in hearing your thoughts about the Schiit preamps.  They offer several preamps, including active, passive, tube, and solid-state.  Some have a “128-step relay-switched stepped attenuator volume control”.  I have no idea if this would meet your needs.   Schiit offers a 15-day trial period, with restocking fee.   Your thoughts?

 

Have you considered a CD player with variable output, and eliminating the preamp?   (My Oppo UDP-205, BDP-105, and BDP-95 have variable output, and unless I need tone controls, I don’t need a preamp.)  I have no experience with Marantz players, but I’m aware that some of their units have variable output, such as the Marantz ND8006 CD player / music streamer.  This is not my cup of tea, because it doesn’t play any of the hi-res disc formats, but it might be of interest to you.  Your thoughts?

 

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Hey Robert!

I was looking at Schitt preamps earlier today, will study them some more. They do look like they would fit the bill. I watched some videos on the designers/engineers and like their attitude towards high end. I may try the Freya (non tube) preamp, and maybe a dac...but if I am going the dac route the PS audio Stellar dac/preamp would also fit the bill. 

I do think I may hook up the digital output from the TV to the preamp if the preamp allows for it (which ever one I decide on) so the CD with variable out is unnecessary. I prefer having a preamp incase I choose to hook something else up in the future. 

I am not overly picky about well built high end gear. I mean I have preferences but I have always been able to find away to enjoy whatever I own. The case of my current preamp is more of the potential issue with the volume control not allowing quiet enough volume with the efficient speakers. In my experiences, I have been able to tone down, or reinforce what I am looking for with speaker placement. I am a firm believer that the room is the first component and wonders can be done with modest systems if speaker placement is dialed in. 

I was in a hotel once, wanted to listen to some music. I had some tiny PC 13 dollar PC speakers and a portable CD player. Laying on the floor with chin on a pillow I had the two speakers just in front of me. Closing my eyes and just listening as I positioned the speakers based on what I heard was a HUGE lesson in how much speaker placement affects the sound, ever since then I have not been as picky with my purchases as long as it "feels right"...which is not something I can measure or explain, you just know you have the right one when you do (if that makes any sense....lol). 

 

I intuition tells me the Schitt or PS audio Stellar are the right direction to pursue. 



 

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I'd be lifting the leads to the volume wipers in what I've got and inserting a couple resistors to get the usable range moved up the scale a bit.

 

[Edit: on second thought, maybe the high sides would be better - wouldn't mess with the taper on the low end that way.]

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FWIW, based on the music I listen to (classical), I have concerns about outboard DACs (i.e., DACs that are separate from the player or source component).  I listen almost exclusively to hi-res recordings such as SACD and various Blu-ray formats.   Due to copyright protections and/or bandwidth limitations of TOSLINK and coax interfaces, most outboard DACs can’t play the SACD layer of a hybrid SACD disc, or the DTS-HD MA 5.1 track of a Blu-ray disc without downgrading the audio.  (Copying discs to NAS is a different scenario, and has its own issues.)  An HDMI DAC might be needed to play SACD and Blu-ray discs – and HDMI DACs are rare.   (McIntosh’s proprietary MCT interface enables their outboard DACs to play the SACD layer of a hybrid SACD.)   

 

And, there are very few outboard DACs that provide 5.1 analog audio connections.    (Surround-sound is common for modern classical recordings, and IMO surround-sound can be beneficial in a large room.)   

 

The Oppo UDP-205 is a universal player that has “audiophile-grade” DACs and analog circuitry built-in, supporting stereo, 2.1, 5.1, and 7.1 analog audio connections. 

 

The Oppo UDP-205 has ESS Technology ES9038PRO DACs, which I understand to be top-of-the-line.   And because these DACs are built into the Oppo UDP-205, the UDP-205 doesn’t have the limitations often associated with an outboard DAC’s TOSLINK or coax cable interface.   Bottom line:  I have yet to hear any reason why there would be any advantage to using an outboard DAC with an Oppo UDP-205.  As a result, I use the UDP-205’s internal DACs.  

 

Switching gears to Schiit products, I am satisfied with my Schiit Loki based on owning it for a week.   (All I needed was the ability to attenuate the treble when using my MC240 power amp, and the Loki cost $150 vs. thousands of dollars for a matching McIntosh pre-amp.)  I would consider Schiit for a future purchase.    If the Schiit FREYA S meets your needs, I think it’s worth considering.   My only reservation is that I need a flashlight and strong reading glasses to see the front panel controls of my Schiit Loki in a dimly lit listening room.  Will you be able to see the Freya’s volume setting from your listening chair?   (I have no experience with Schiit’s remote control units.)   

 

With an Oppo UDP-205, “pre-amp functionality” such as variable output (but not tone controls) is built-in.   In addition to playing every type of audio and video disc and downloaded audio file, my Oppo UDP-205 and BDP-105 provide a TOSLINK input that enables my HDTV to utilize the Oppo’s ESS Technology ES9038PRO DACs.  Or, I can connect a Chromecast Audio via TOSLINK to my UDP-205 and BDP-105 for streaming services such as Tunein radio.    (I wish the UDP-205 and BDP-105 had 2 TOSLINK inputs.)   I had Spotify Premium and Tidal, but cancelled them because IMO the experience that they provide pales in comparison with Blu-ray.   In 4 of my 5 hi-fi systems, an Oppo player is the front end, because of its ability to play all digital audio and video formats and interface with my vintage tube amps.   (In my living room system, I can connect an Oppo BDP-105 directly to two 1950s era McIntosh MC30 power amps, plus a subwoofer.  Sounds fabulous.)  

 

And because the Oppo UDP-205 is connected to an HDTV, during playback useful information is displayed on the screen, such as volume level, track #, etc.   (And when playing an opera on Blu-ray, the libretto can be displayed on the screen, which is extremely useful.)  The HDTV screen can easily be “blanked” (i.e., black) via the “Pure Audio” button on the Oppo’s remote control.   (I think of this feature like a “video mute” button.)  And the UDP-205 has a parameter for volume setting upon power-on (i.e., either a user specified fixed value, or the last value). This feature eliminates the possibility of accidentally having the volume set extremely loud when the unit is turned on.  (This is important if you alternate between classical and pop recordings, because pop recordings are typically mastered MUCH louder than the average volume level in classical recordings.)     And there is a parameter setting for the maximum volume level. The UDP-205’s implementation of volume control is more convenient IMO than trying to guess from the listening chair where the volume control is set on a pre-amp.   And IMO being able to see information about the recording (e.g., track #) on the HDTV screen is easier than trying to see the small display on a CD player.

 

FWIW, I encourage people to consider source components that provide the maximum flexibility in choosing recordings that employ newer technologies (e.g., Blu-ray, SACD), so that current and future needs are accommodated.  Here’s my understanding of two “universal players”:

 

  1. My choice is the Oppo UDP-205, connected to an integrated amp (or pre-amp/power amp) with tone controls.  Or, connect a UDP-205 directly to a power amp, and if tone controls are needed, use a Schiit Loki.    (The Oppo BDP-105 is a good unit if Ultra HD Blu-ray isn’t a requirement.)  Unfortunately, Oppo no longer manufactures products.
     
  2. If someone else’s requirements do NOT include surround-sound, or a line-level subwoofer connection, then I’d consider a Sony UBP-X1100ES universal player (or older and cheaper UBP-X1000ES), and I’d connect an integrated amp (or pre-amp/power amp), or a Schiit Freya remote volume control and a power amp.   (The Sony UBP-X1100ES doesn’t have a volume control.)

 

Bottom line, sometimes a pre-amp isn’t needed.  IMO, it would be wise to first know what player you’ll use before deciding if a pre-amp is needed.

 

Unless someone is 100% positive that they only want to play CDs (i.e., no SACDs, Blu-ray, downloaded hi-res files), FWIW I think that investing in a “CD-only player” is myopic.  With that said, I recognize that each audiophile’s needs are different.   Different people have different tastes in music – and the genre of music determines whether modern hi-res recordings are relevant.  And, of course, different people have different budgets.   

 

I’m afraid I can’t answer which volume control mechanism is best for low level listening.  Perhaps someone else can share their experience.   And, I think that’s where a manufacturer’s or retailer’s liberal return policy comes into play.  

 

Please keep us posted.  I’m interested in learning from your experience.

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