are your speaker's really neutral?

[prodj101]

my first question is: Have you ever been to a live studio recording session? If so, after you heard the musician singing/playing it live, did it sound exactly the same when played through the studio monitors? Than, after you got the final copy, which you brought home and played on your system, or any system, could you honestly say, "wow, my 50,000 dollar system sounds exactly the same as in the studio"? Well, basically, my point is not whether or not you have actually done this, but considering 90 percent of you have never been to a recording session, how can you claim that your speakers play it just like it was when it was played live? Specs really don't mean alot here, as I have been to such things, and heard the recordings played back through the top of the line Mackie monitors, which have a very flat response (flatter than most anything), and they sounded nowhere close to the original. But anyway, back to main question: How can you say your speakers are accurate without hearing the music first hand?

[Manuel Delaflor]

Looks like you want to open the can of worms

Anyway, here I go, leading for some trouble as always...

Accuracy is a Myth.

That is my statement.

[nak]

with out accuracy, what have you got, nothing but colored music

[nak]

well no doubt , look at the sony your runnin, a 1bit dac, nowonder you know nothing about accuracy lol

[nak]

lmao u can bring a horse to water, but u cant make um drink

[marksdad]

you are right, i have been sitting here trying to come up with something intelligent to say but nothing comes out????? as always it is up to the individual ears, i have listened to enough concerts, and even played in school bands to know that all of the mixed tones we hear are really 1-2-3-4 instruments and vocals combined, and when listening on good equipment you can hear that, beginings and endings of notes, performers breathing, subtle nuances that make listening a pleasure, accurate? good question

[TheEAR]

Manuel EL Klipschos ,

"Accuracy is a Myth." oh yes! LOL

Accuracy is about uncompressed dynamics,tonal truth and neutrality(as little as possible added and removed from the original performance).Not embelished music,like many tube amps do so well.Tubes are not what I would call neutral,they do make music sound "nicer" and this is why there are so many tubephiles.

Embelished is not true to the original and cannot be called accurate.Then again do we want to hear this accuracy? Most often NO,and neither do I.I like a high rez system with a good dose of sub bass.Is it accurate...NO and I dont give a damn.

[DeanG Crossovers]

Hey Nak, why not use the edit feature and just add your additional comments to the initial post? Also, we are not in the habit on this forum of insulting someone's intelligence or taste, based on the equipment they own. It's all about preference -- and extremely subjective. I definitely don't get the "1 bit DAC" statement. Whether multi-bit DACs are superior to single bit DACs is highly debated -- and I see no evidence that anyone has cornered the market on truth regarding this debate.

I used to own an Anthem CD-1 with a multi-bit DAC, Burr-Brown Op amps, and tubed output. I paid $1800 for it when it came out. 6 months ago I bought a Sony 9000ES to compare to it -- fully expecting to send it back after the comparison. The Anthem was sold, and the 9000ES is king in my house. If you do a search on the 9000ES, you will find my two part review on the machines Rebook performance, and SACD as well. At any rate, the DAC is only part of the equation, as the execution and quality of the analog section is just, if not more important.

As far as "accuracy" goes, I'm for the most part with Manuel here. A myth. The word is wide open to interpretation, and everyone has a different idea of what it means. Music encompasses so much -- macro-dynamics, micro-dynamics, pace, tone/timbre, and all those words we use to describe it. No speaker does it all, and no one agrees on what elements are the most important. However, most here would rightfully put the emphasis on "dynamics".

BobG said it best at some point in the past. If you are going down the street and hear music -- what is it about the music that tells you whether it's "live", or being "reproduced" on a system. It's actually the dynamics of the music that tell you, and believe it or not -- the uneven frequency response -- for "Live" music is anything but flat!

[prodj101]

oh, and another thing, when people say, "these speakers are true audiophile speakers, they have a very smooth and uncolored sound". Isn't smoothness a coloration in it's self? there isn't anything smooth about a high distortion guitar. Also, you might wanna remove that statement nak, I learned it the hard way. Insulting peoples equipment is not the way to go here, plus, it's just rude.

[WMcD]

It is a good question.

There is some historic precedent. In the "Klipsch Papers" is Bell Labs efforts to record an orchestra in one hall, then transmit it by telephone wires to another hall some miles away, and play it back over horns on stage. Then see how it sounded. Apparently pretty good.

There are a lot of issues involved. Many of them are the room acoustics in the recording and playback. PWK reported recording a piano and playing back in the same room, and being able to fool half the people half the time. Quite a remarkable acomplishment.

I go to the symphony about once a year. The K-Horns do a good job within limits. It is difficult to create the illusion that one's living room is as big as a symphony hall.

On the other hand, I'm convinced that what critics say are wrong with horns is actually a credit to them. Live music is occasionally harsh and loud, very dynamic. A drum set in your living room would be brash.

Gil

[Mighty Favog]

Ahhhh! The mixing board is definitley a good thing....

I have yet to hear a live performance (rock, jazz or orchestral) that did not produce some sort of tedious notions to my ears.

[prodj101]

yeah, I don't think klipsch speakers are harsh either, just more accurate than none harsh ones. I have been to every type of concert (jazz, classical, rock, rap, w/e), and they are always really ruff sounding, not all smooth and elegant like B&W speakers claim to be in their ads.

[maxg]

I recall a thread from a month or so back that did this subject to death. The views polarised into 2 camps - the give me accuracy or give me death camp and the I dont care about accuracy I just care that it sounds good to me camp.

There is, as is often the case in audio it seems, no right of wrong answer. If you cannot enjoy what you are listening to because you feel that it is not true enough to the original then accuracy is the path for you to follow. If not then welcome to the world of tubes and horns...

FWIW the guy that introduced me into the wonders of audio is an accuracy freak. According to him the combo he runs (Quad 989's matched to Accuphase 407 integrated amp and acoustic solid TT is the most accurate combo available at any smei reasonable price).

He may be right. I am sure it is a far less colored offering than my own system. I would simply never choose it...

Horses for courses

[BerndH]

If you don't like, what comes out (of your speakers), you will find thousands of reasons why not. Missing accuracy is one.

Imagine a combo only with acoustic instruments without amplification. When they play in different halls (or recording studios) they sound different. And when do they sound right? Never and ever. Thus it is impossible to hear the band like they sounded during recording, when your listening room is another.

A and O of accuracy is keeping the same conditions. For that reason are measurement results in the (audio) industry different under different conditions.

[prodj101]

how is it imposible to hear the original song if you have been in the recording studio with them?

[Orange Peel]

How do you take into consideration all the crap they do to the song in the studio to make it sound perfect? Not very many bands sound EXACTLY like they do in concert/live. So how they sound in person/concert would be the BEST way to judge how they really sound. The studio versions of songs are edited, blended, tweaked, etc.

Does all this really matter anyways? Some people say their suff is the best and it sounds how it really should sound on their speakers, others disagree. I think Klipsch does a real nice job of reproducing the closest sound to being right there, I can hear their lips smack, take breaths, pluck of the strings, etc. That's good enough for me

[Manuel Delaflor]

prodj101

Because your room acoustics.

Some are aware of this an use several treatments to have a "nicer" room, acoustically speaking. Still, some people forget that the sound of the room can't be "avoided" or "cancelled". Every room will impose its own sound to the speakers.

The conclusion of this apparently innocuous statement is that the room is part of the speaker. So, the very same speaker that sounds incredible in a well designed room will sound like a totally different speaker in another room (the imaging, soundstage, clarity, detail, transparency and such stuff will be different).

This alone, makes the so called "accuracy" an impossible goal.

[erikjohn]

Couple things to keep in mind here:

First, when in a studio everything affects sound that goes to the board just as it does from your cd player to your amp to your speakers. Equipment and microphone choices will affect the sound with the microphones being a significant part of how stuff sounds. People use different mics to enhnce or take away certian things in the original sound of the instrument or vocals.

Second, they do want to use flat speakers to monitor tracks and for final mixdown. There needs to be a benchmark or a zero set if you will. In order to know where to tweak and where not to the preference would be to use the flattest sounding speakers possible. Keeping in mind the final mixdown is rarely mixed without tweaking the sound. This is done to create more of a flat sound that will sound better on an array of different speaker types on the final printing. Keeping it flat on mixdown keeps everything there musically as they try not to take away anything but rather equalize to flat. Noting that things are punched up depending on the music. This allows the listener(consumer) to tweak their setup to their individual taste since all of the information is available on the track.

I myself do not like to listen flat. I crank the bass and treble all the way most of the time, but I do like to start with a set of relatively flat sounding speakers because they allow me to tweak anywhere in the frequency spectrum. Some speakers you can try to equalize certain frequencies but it just doesn't seem to do much, that is because the speakers are not reproducing that range worth a darn. When I equalize my Heritage, I can hear every little adjustment on the eq and it normally doesn't ake alot of adjustment.

Keep in mind the flatter sounding speakers you have the more range you have for tweaking because the speakers are not lacking at reproducing any given frequency of sound.

I have been in a recording studio numerous times but am not a sound engineer therefore what I say may make absolutley no sense to anyone that really knows what they are talking about.

EJ