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MCM 1900 Power Requirements

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Big power is to ensure a never clipped wave.  Probably explains that inpact remark. 

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OK I understand that but just how much extra power does one need? I have never turned my 200 watt per channel amp up more than half way with either the MCM 1900's or S-MWM's. As a percentage of amp output what do you recommend as best practice?

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7 hours ago, glens said:

Indoors only for you or some out, too?

Indoors only so far. This spring though I am going to roll the big door up on the shop, point them out and let them rip and we shall see what there is to be had. You show up at SWAG and I might have a chance to do the same thing there.

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2 hours ago, Randyh said:

OK - Dave - here you go -

 

 

 

let 's take an example   :     2 amps  -100 watts pair of  speakers - 400 watts peak  -8 ohms -

 

 a)-200 watts amp -you have 1/2 the rating for the peaks the speaker can handle /maximum 400 watts,-  but  the amp is already  distorting at 50% of the power , as the meters are very close to the red -- low damping factor , the amp is on the verge of clipping - raising the volume past 50%  , hits the read line --and affects the sound drastically , it is on the edge  - it is not just getting  louder , it is bad sound - -the bass is flabby , the mids - highs screech  rather than sparkle -hearing  damage is ++++++++++++-

 

 b)- 400 watts  amp - 400 watts peak- the speaker can  handle  up to 400 watts   , the amp has 0 distortion at 25% level   -high damping factor ,clean , tight bass , clear highs , no overheating anywhere , no risk of damaging the speaker or the amplifier -

 

Bonus  headroom - -the sound is so well defined that you can turn down the volume rather that having to raise the volume to get more clarity from the mid/-highs- or a punchier bass   --

 

At half rated output the clipping monitor on the amp shows zero clipping. The lowest light never even starts glowing. I hardly ever go that loud and only do so with hearing protection on and let the visitor that wants to hear thump have at it. Half the rated output of my two amps into those S-MWM's is more than I care to handle.

  How do you know this amp is distorting at the level you mention and what is your base line for that comment?

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On 10/10/2019 at 3:36 AM, Dave A said:

Assumi Now the mystery to me on these is they are rated at like 99db but I could take the same power that went into say a set of Chorus I's and get more perceivable volume out of the MCM stacks by just changing from one to the other and not touching the volume control. MCM 1900's are unlike anything else I have ever had to play with.

 

Sometimes pro audio speakers' output is measured at 3 metres instead of 1 metre, to give a more realistic idea of how much volume will be available in a typical listening space.

 

At 1 metre, the figure for your MCMs would be quite a bit higher than 99 dB.

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On 1/1/2020 at 7:50 PM, Dave A said:

OK I understand that but just how much extra power does one need? I have never turned my 200 watt per channel amp up more than half way with either the MCM 1900's or S-MWM's. As a percentage of amp output what do you recommend as best practice?

 

It's all about the headroom.  That's where the realistic dynamics come from.  Paul McGowan of PS Audio mentions in one of his YouTube videos that he uses a 1 to 10 rule:  if you need 50 watts, it will sound best with 500 watts.  I'm using 1000 watts per channel in my bi-amped 402 Jubscala II system, and if I turn up the volume (not crazy high, mind you) it can sound like there's an actual live drummer playing in front of you.   Impact sounds like drumbeats and handclaps can require 10-100 times the power needed for the rest of the music in order to sound fully realistic.  Most of the time, I listen in the 60-75 dB range, going to 80 only occasionally.  On rare occasions, like yourself, I'll turn the volume up extra high for a visitor, but not for long.

 

As for distortion, the general rule is that pro audio power amps are meant to run at near full power most of the the time, so they're designed to sound clean at those levels.  Home audio amps, on the other hand, typically operate at much lower power levels, and are designed accordingly.  For example, the Yamaha MX-D1 amps I'm using are rated at 500 watts/channel, but have their lowest distortion figures in the 6-10 watt range, which makes good sense for home use.

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1 minute ago, Randyh said:

super- amplifier

 

Thanks.  I'm really happy with them.  They (in harmony with the speakers) clearly locate every instrument in space, and seem to shine a light onto the performers who are further back on the stage and usually get lost in the mix.  And they have lots of power.

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4 hours ago, Islander said:

 

It's all about the headroom.  That's where the realistic dynamics come from.  Paul McGowan of PS Audio mentions in one of his YouTube videos that he uses a 1 to 10 rule:  if you need 50 watts, it will sound best with 500 watts.  I'm using 1000 watts per channel in my bi-amped 402 Jubscala II system, and if I turn up the volume (not crazy high, mind you) it can sound like there's an actual live drummer playing in front of you.   Impact sounds like drumbeats and handclaps can require 10-100 times the power needed for the rest of the music in order to sound fully realistic.  Most of the time, I listen in the 60-75 dB range, going to 80 only occasionally.  On rare occasions, like yourself, I'll turn the volume up extra high for a visitor, but not for long.

 

As for distortion, the general rule is that pro audio power amps are meant to run at near full power most of the the time, so they're designed to sound clean at those levels.  Home audio amps, on the other hand, typically operate at much lower power levels, and are designed accordingly.  For example, the Yamaha MX-D1 amps I'm using are rated at 500 watts/channel, but have their lowest distortion figures in the 6-10 watt range, which makes good sense for home use.

OK that makes sense considering what happened when I put some 800 watt QSC's on some LSI's with 480 's under them the first time. I had been using a poor overworked Onkyo and the drums did slam and the bass sounded great with the QSC. I can't spend the money now but will look into it when I can.

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Zooming through the posts today and on my way by this one I had a thought. Kind of what the heck is this thought. Right or wrong I like to think of what pros do to get good live sound in real life concerts that we all want to duplicate in our systems. Somehow I doubt an 80000 watt system with a big venue  has 800000 watts so they can sound right at 1/10 rated amp output. I believe I might double my wattage for the heck of it but I fall into the sceptics camp on this 10 to 1 ratio today. With my above example I went from woefully under powered to way over powered and had no chance to see in between levels.

 

  It saddens me that good reliable bullet proof info on best practices seems so elusive and we are left to experimentation in so many ways. With all the capabilities in the Xilica I am wondering if all I need is in there waiting to be unlocked when I learn how to really use it and REW.

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On 1/12/2020 at 12:26 PM, Dave A said:

I believe I might double my wattage for the heck of it <snip>

Does that mean you can gain 3 more db?

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Just now, Woofers and Tweeters said:

Does that mean you can gain 3 more db?

HA, yes what would that serve. Ear splitting vs ear bleeding?  200 watts to each bass bin and 402 and I rarely turn it up more than 1/6 full rated capacity so I think I am just going to stay with what I have and let people tell me I am wrong. I think I can easily handle the dire consequences of being forced to listen to this underpowered system😀 You need to stop in some day when you are around the general area.

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3 minutes ago, Dave A said:

HA, yes what would that serve. Ear splitting vs ear bleeding?  200 watts to each bass bin and 402 and I rarely turn it up more than 1/6 full rated capacity so I think I am just going to stay with what I have and let people tell me I am wrong. I think I can easily handle the dire consequences of being forced to listen to this underpowered system😀 You need to stop in some day when you are around the general area.

Careful who you invite into your shop. James will have a field day mulling around your equipment, sound equipment and fabricating equipment. He was a kid in a candy store at my shop eyeing up machinery. I dont think anything was missing when he left but I am pretty sure he stole a licence plate on the parking lot.

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1 minute ago, Dave A said:

You need to stop in some day when you are around the general area.

That's a fact. 

 

My MCM are in a ~ 20' x 24' room. I might peak at 1/2 a watt when I am busy and want to hear it. 1 full watt and I am rocking pretty good. 10 watts RMS peaking at whatever it might be is as loud as a rock concert. I have never turned anything that I own all the way to 10, and mine go to 11. 

 

2 minutes ago, MookieStl said:

Careful who you invite into your shop. James will have a field day mulling around your equipment, sound equipment and fabricating equipment. He was a kid in a candy store at my shop eyeing up machinery. I dont think anything was missing when he left but I am pretty sure he stole a licence plate on the parking lot.

FACT ^ 

It was too funny to see my name on the front of your daughter's car. Please tell her thanks again for giving me the dealer's plate. g.thumb.jpg.4a8f2667d73d1c0c0b2aa2c2ce7345ef.jpg

 

 

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Dang James, turn it up...

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37 minutes ago, MookieStl said:

Careful who you invite into your shop. James will have a field day mulling around your equipment, sound equipment and fabricating equipment. He was a kid in a candy store at my shop eyeing up machinery. I dont think anything was missing when he left but I am pretty sure he stole a licence plate on the parking lot.

I have plenty of bait.  Besides he needs to get my future build double horn lens replacement for those delicate K-77's he has sitting up there.

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On 1/11/2020 at 8:00 PM, Islander said:

 

Sometimes pro audio speakers' output is measured at 3 metres instead of 1 metre, to give a more realistic idea of how much volume will be available in a typical listening space.

 

At 1 metre, the figure for your MCMs would be quite a bit higher than 99 dB.

 

Most sound reinforcement speaker systems are tested outdoors at 10 meters with a 10 watt input signal. This is exactly equal to 1 watt at 1 meter.  Loudspeakers tested in a chamber could be at I meter or longer, with input power adjusted so that results are equivalent to the 1 watt at 1 meter spec.

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