Jump to content

CHIEF BONEHEAD Education Class


Recommended Posts

3D2D6AFB-A3BA-4967-A535-94D4EDD1EB0A.thumb.jpeg.69173d0679b008019ecb5813fc0aaf66.jpeg

 

My impressions from this demonstration was the following and please remember these are all excellent speakers especially when considering their cost categories. If you own any of these models congratulations you made an excellent choice :emotion-21::smile: but please remember their should be a hierarchy based on cost and design compromises all loudspeakers require and that Klipsch continually researches and discovers improvements over time and since their very beginning they have always worked to make real audible and technical improvements and to me these newest models are showing the deepest of respect for PWK the man who began it all. 

 

Roy emphasized strongly the changes he makes to the heritage models especially are ones that he knew PWK had been working on in his research and to the best of his ability the changes are all in the direction that PWK was working on and contrary to what some might think that included porting the Heresy.

 

 

 

La Scala AL5 exhibited excellent clarity without box resonates colorations that all the other box models exhibited in comparison.

 

The Forte lll exhibited excellent clarity with the least box resonance coloration versus the Heresy lll and Cornwall lll and was clearly the closest in sound to the La Scala AL5.

 

The Cornwall lll and Heresy lll both exhibited a noticeable amount of box resonance colorations and clarity was a step down as well relative to the Forte lll and La Scala AL5.

 

In summary it was my opinion that the design improvements Roy has given the Forte lll and LaScala AL5 had created a larger gap in sound quality and family sound when compared to the older designs.

 

FYI: After I had expressed my opinions to Roy he said he new that once they had designed the Forte lll and experienced the improvements that it would necessitate eventually the redesign of the Heresy lll and Cornwall Ill to preserve as close as possible the family sound and maintain the hierarchy of the different models.

 

miketn

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

CD65F8C8-51D1-4855-B0D7-19486BC973D0.thumb.jpeg.a68fab38151c043734480993743fe18a.jpeg

 

 

My impressions from this demonstration was the following and please remember these are all excellent speakers especially when considering their cost categories. If you own any of these models congratulations you made an excellent choice :emotion-21::smile: but please remember their should be a hierarchy based on cost and design compromises all loudspeakers require and that Klipsch continually researches and discovers improvements over time and since their very beginning they have always worked to make real audible and technical improvements and to me these newest models are showing the deepest of respect for PWK the man who began it all. 

 

Roy emphasized strongly the changes he makes to the heritage models especially are ones that he knew PWK had been working on in his research and to the best of his ability the changes are all in the direction that PWK was working on and contrary to what some might think that included porting the Heresy.

 

 

 

Again this was the second demo comparison with the Heresy lV and Cornwall lV replacing the previous lll generation models of them.

 

The Heresy lV IMHO has seen probably the largest audible improvements followed very closely by the Cornwall lV improvements but again it's a very close call which has improved the most because the improvements aren't subtle.  The box resonance colorations has been reduced significantly and that along with the other improvements in the midrange horn and tweeter phase plug has increased the clarity of the loudspeaker that I believe is a significant improvement that anyone would very easily hear. For those who have expressed doubts about the Heresy going ported you can rest easy this is easily the best sounding Heresy model ever produced IMHO with a quality of bass reproduction never heard from the past designed versions.

 

The Cornwall lV IMHO has again seen box resonance colorations reduced significantly and that along with the other improvements with the new midrange horn/driver and tweeter phase plug has increased the clarity of the loudspeaker that I believe is such a significant improvement that anyone would very easily hear.

 

There is now IMHO a very clear hierarchy of sound performance and very close family of sound restored to these models that as Roy said makes them sound like very close brothers or sisters. :D

 

I have also read some post wondering about the Cornwall lll and Cornwall lV having different woofer positions in the cabinet. I remember the design of the Cornwall lll included a reposition of the woofer as part of minimizing box resonance coloration issues (which all box type design loudspeakers of any brand have to deal with) of that versions design and now you will notice the woofer location has been changed so after hearing the very significant reduction in box resonance colorations of the two new models I asked Roy if he had performed other design changes to the cabinet that lead to the greatly reduced colorations which he confirmed but I'll let him talk about that if he is able to share it.

 

miketn

 

 

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, mikebse2a3 said:

PWK was working on and contrary to what some might think that included porting the Heresy.

In that case, I'm happy I got to do it first with the Super Heresy 1.0 and 2.0. DIY, lives among classic Klipsheads, while we convert the masses to buy the latest stuff from Roy! This is especially true when we see what those Axpona people overcharge for inefficient, high distortion, hornless speakers!

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

805FA698-7C9E-4C6F-966B-18A0C3D43074.thumb.jpeg.150e5e7eb75d957cfee9315f57f487b8.jpeg

 

1CD10923-0726-4187-9F1C-F28FDB5F244D.thumb.jpeg.5d759a702a5c44d67e98268b3308893f.jpeg

 

These pictures were taken as Roy explained how PWK use to design Klipsch Balancing Networks (often mistakenly called crossover network which doesn’t fully describe their true operations).

 

The box setting on the Cornwall lV is one of many that contained either capacitors or inductors or resistors of different values that would be combined with similar boxes as needed depending on crossover frequency and number of poles needed if for example 6db, 12db, 18db or 24db for example was desired as the network was being developed and optimized. One box represented one pole of the filter so as the filter rate increased the number of boxes required increased accordingly.

 

miketn

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

68B06B5C-4D36-40A6-9044-0E199B6B4413.thumb.jpeg.70bef4f5d5a4f5b820a4227f01fbbad8.jpeg

 

So during this demonstration Roy wanted us to experience the differences heard by just changing the crossover slopes from 6db, 12db, 18db and 24db Butterworth types. He asked us to listen and move around and listen also as he switched between them and afterwards to describe what we heard.

 

As the types were changed I could hear shifts in the on axis as well as off axis frequency balance and varying clarity and if one stayed in the same location off axis you could hear lobing shifts easily off axis. 

 

 

E073A423-10BB-429F-9D9E-BC40BF4C9FB0.thumb.jpeg.1c7a4da83d0ccba7875fc5ee72148023.jpeg

 

DCA35B4E-DB3D-474B-93F7-4662F4DF9EB4.thumb.jpeg.f9d426b9863b69bedeb0067658f521e8.jpeg

 

 These two pictures were taken as Roy showed us the measurements of the different slopes that we had listened too before and how they interacted with the actual woofer, midrange and tweeter acoustical characteristics so as to optimize the complete loudspeaker system.

 He demonstrated how he would look for distortion, phase, amplitude along with the interactions of the components of the system to make design choices that was far from some text book examples most might be familiar with. 

 

 This was a great example of how complicated the requirements are to optimize the loudspeaker balancing network is and the tools required to perform it properly.

 

 This was also a great example IMHO of why someone shouldn’t describe or consider an after market crossover an upgrade but instead it should be called a modification that alters the frequency response on axis and power response off axis as well as distortion characteristics that while someone might like the changes it’s no longer optimized to Klipsch standards and in effect it is acting as an equalizer on the system.

 

When listening to everyone's comments after this demonstration I don't think one person who went through this experience didn't change their opinion on how important it is to have the necessary tools and experience to develop balancing networks.

 

Roy also said while all these measurement and testing optimizing are being implemented the listening testing are performed as well to verify the results and if it doesn't meet expectations measurements and testing continues until the network passes all the audible and measurable expectations to qualify as a Klipsch Loudspeaker.

 

 

miketn

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, mikebse2a3 said:

So during this demonstration Roy wanted us to experience the differences heard by just changing the crossover slopes from 6db, 12db, 18db and 24db Butterworth types. He asked us to listen and move around and listen also as he switched between them and afterwards to describe what we heard.

 

As the types were changed I could hear shifts in the on axis as well as off axis frequency balance and varying clarity and if one stayed in the same location off axis you could hear lobing shifts easily off axis. 

That must have been a most revealing demonstration, Mike...perhaps one that will have its participants reflecting on it for some time.

 

I had these aspects of loudspeaker design/setup demonstrated most strikingly this past spring during my own efforts and my setup using DSP crossovers in a room with controlled acoustics (perhaps even more controlled than the room you were in) while guided by REW measurements.  I'm still dumbfounded at what the changes sound like...to the point where I realized that much of the prior work I'd done using Audacity on CDs and a few DVD-As has to be redone.  By this I mean that I've experienced the full aspect of the "circle of confusion" described by Toole, first hand, and the results were simultaneously revealing and quite troubling.  There are a few revelations experienced doing this loudspeaker exercise that I haven't yet discussed because of their implications.

 

I have to say that most audio enthusiasts are concerned far too little about these areas, and how dramatic a difference they make in resulting subjective perception.  I now have a completely different view on this subject--one that has changed my view on audio and loudspeaker design in general.  The related fact that there are no real standards for loudspeaker design practices (as they relate to the subjective listening experience) now has me wondering if anything that is said between any two "audiophiles" can have much meaning until those involved have heard and understood these effects.

 

Chris

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, mikebse2a3 said:

As the types were changed I could hear shifts in the on axis as well as off axis frequency balance and varying clarity and if one stayed in the same location off axis you could hear lobing shifts easily off axis. 

 

Some may have noticed that I asked Roy whether he was using Butterworth or Linkwitz-Riley filters for the 12 and 24 dB cases. Roy answered "Butterworth", which may cause some to wonder why not use the "industry standard" Linkwitz-Riley type. The fact is, in a small listening room the "in-phase at all frequencies" property of Linkwitz-Riley doesn't matter all that much. But in a large auditorium, it matters quite a lot.

 

In an auditorium, the lobing means that every section of the audience is experiencing a different frequency response than every other section of the audience. In a small listening room, you can get a similar effect by moving your head a few inches, but the reflections off the walls and ceiling pretty much fill-in the gaps.

 

The DX-38 that Roy uses was designed for auditorium, theater, and stadium use. That's why Linkwitz-Riley filters were included. When used for home audio, use what sounds best. Personally, I think that Linkwitz-Riley responses sound "dull" -- I prefer Bessel. But that's just my opinion.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, parlophone1 said:

I was also awaiting comments about Cornwall IV from you guys that had a chance to listen them, especially in comparison to other heritage speakers.

 

We listened to seven heritage speakers; you can see them all in the photographs above. Of all of them, the Cornwall IV was the only one that I really wanted to sneak into the back of my car while nobody was looking.

 

The word that I used to describe them during the listening session was "splendid". Midrange, particularly on vocals, was superb. The rest was OK[*], too.

 

* OK in the Roy Delgado sense.

  • Haha 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Edgar said:

Some may have noticed that I asked Roy whether he was using Butterworth or Linkwitz-Riley filters for the 12 and 24 dB cases. Roy answered "Butterworth", which may cause some to wonder why not use the "industry standard" Linkwitz-Riley type. The fact is, in a small listening room the "in-phase at all frequencies" property of Linkwitz-Riley doesn't matter all that much. But in a large auditorium, it matters quite a lot.

 

About 10-12 years ago, one of the big PR pushes at Harman/JBL was subjective ranking of loudspeaker capabilities, most notably culminating in a patented preferences model by Sean Olive (US8311232).  While I believe that this decision model has some very interesting deficiencies--notably the "voice of the customer" when the customers are trained musicians--what Olive did find with his sub-sample population of home hi-fi listeners selected for loudspeaker trials (i.e., not representative of the wider group of listeners taken as a whole) was that the most important factor in their selected listeners is the evenness of SPL response (also known as "frequency response") with off-axis angles, i.e., the loudspeaker's power response, shown below from Olive's literature related to his patent:

 

2102901786_SeanOlivePreferencesofLoudspeakerPerfFactorsPieChart.gif.a2b97d540eec035c089e8345fee0811f.gif

 

This relates to the above comments on which sort of crossover filters are used.  It's an interesting subject.  I have my own observations that may not coincide with everyone's opinions, but note that I'm usually referring to loudspeakers having full-range directivity--like the La Scala and Jubilee, but not like the other loudspeakers shown above.  I've found this makes a difference in how well you can hear crossover filter types and slopes, etc., and is related to how well the loudspeaker can keep its nearfield acoustic energy below 1 kHz off the walls, ceiling, and floor of the room.

 

Chris

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

For me...............I was astounded at how wonderful the Jubs sounded in Roy's listening room.  I have heard Jubs in that room 3 or 4 times and this was clearly the best.  691 drivers on the 402s.  Seamless sound..........Sparkling things dancing off the slanted ceiling.  Vocals jumping out front.........Clean clear bottom end with extension.

 

While the Heritage demo was striking and very impressive and interesting to me (no need to describe as Mike already did).............the Jubs stole the show for me while at the same time flying under the radar it seemed.

 

Regardless, Roy's fingerprints are on all of it.  He is so calm about all of it, but this is clear.  He's got a great FAMILY of toys for every kind of listener.

 

Also of interest to me was the quality of sound of the amp Roy was using which was a QSC DCA 1644 Digital Cinema Amplifier.  Excellent...........best sound I have ever heard in that room.  Obviously we listened to many speakers.

 

Finally, the room itself.  I took notice of that right away in fact.  A step up from my situation.  My room is by comparison slightly over damped.

 

While the Jubs were playing I texted my wife and told her............ "The good news is I don't need to buy any more speakers.  The bad news is we need a new house."

 

Hey..............we all went for different reasons.  These are the things that jumped out at me based on where I am in this hobby.

 

Finally..............seeing all the people I have known for many years and hadn't seen in 10 years...........and meeting some new people as well.

 

Jim Hunter............What a great job at everything he does.  Great presentations on the Klipsch and PWK history, and a great guy to talk to.

 

Travis, Christy, Elden, Ian, Richard......and Company (I apologize to those I am missing)............the museum staff is a hard working dedicated group.  They put on an excellent event.  I am so glad I attended.  Highly recommended.

 

 

 

 

  • Like 5
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...