CHIEF BONEHEAD Education Class

[Edgar]

1 hour ago, mark1101 said:

For me...............I was astounded at how wonderful the Jubs sounded in Roy's listening room.  I have heard Jubs in that room 3 or 4 times and this was clearly the best.  691 drivers on the 402s.  Seamless sound..........Sparkling things dancing off the slanted ceiling.  Vocals jumping out front.........Clean clear bottom end with extension.

 

This was my first time auditioning Jubilees. My previously-mentioned minor issue with timbre notwithstanding, I found them to be extraordinary. They excel at the qualities that I have only heard from fully horn-loaded reproducers -- dynamics, and a quality that I can only describe as effortlessness. Big Big Big (not to be confused with "loud", though they do "loud" well, too) sound in a small space. The others sounded good, but could not match the Jubilees for these qualities. Not even in the same league.

[rockhound]

22 hours ago, jjptkd said:

It's the old CF-4 horn with mumps added

Thank ya'll for the pics and insights!

[mikebse2a3]

2 hours ago, mark1101 said:

Jim Hunter............What a great job at everything he does.  Great presentations on the Klipsch and PWK history, and a great guy to talk to.

 

Travis, Christy, Elden, Ian, Richard......and Company (I apologize to those I am missing)............the museum staff is a hard working dedicated group.  They put on an excellent event.  I am so glad I attended.  Highly recommended.

 

I strongly second these comments and should have already said them myself.  

👍🙂

[Coytee]

Man, sounds like you guys had a (typical) killer time!!!  Wish I could have been there.  All of your stories have painted a nice picture of the experience.

[Dave A]

On 10/21/2019 at 1:09 PM, Pete H said:

I don't think he's ready to jump into the pro stuff and WAF will have a little to do with this decision, but not much. 

If WAF is not the determining factor and sound is, he will be doing a great dis-service to himself by ignoring the Jubilee.

[Chris A]

22 hours ago, mark1101 said:

While the Jubs were playing I texted my wife and told her............ "The good news is I don't need to buy any more speakers.  The bad news is we need a new house."

  My condolences.

 

22 hours ago, mark1101 said:

Finally, the room itself.  I took notice of that right away in fact.  A step up from my situation.  My room is by comparison slightly over damped.

This is always a tradeoff: what is the reverberation time of the room vs. frequency, and how much detail/clarity you trade for.  And larger rooms sound better than smaller ones (at home hi-fi scale).  The listening room next to the chamber in Hope is fairly good size. 

 

I can't remember what the room sounded like from our 2009 get-together (the last time that I was in that room), but I do remember where I was standing/sitting at the very back of the room toward the right corner (looking forward).  Roy mentioned that there was a lot of acoustics work done to that room (as he said in 2009), and I found that my right back corner listening location was pretty good--maybe not as good as centered on the front row of listening positions, but good enough to hear the differences between loudspeakers/settings, and that's good enough I've found.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

A comment that I think needs to be made at this juncture as I read the comments here: I find that a few listeners somehow hold their own internal expectations on what the loudspeaker should sound like, over what they're hearing from in-room loudspeakers.  I've learned that there is no such thing as a "perfect internal compass" on how things like vocals should sound, because it varies so much with the recordings that a real baseline is impossible to establish for loudspeakers. 

 

When you think that, say, a certain human voice should sound a certain way on certain loudspeakers, when you do finally get your setup to the quality standards that you think is the best that you can achieve in-room, and then you put recordings on, my experience is that almost every recording has been altered (damaged) by mastering EQ and other "enhancements" that are meant to make the sound translate to some lower quality studio monitors/mastering room than the speakers/room that you're currently listening to/in. 

 

When I correct the EQ of these recordings using Audacity while looking at the spectrograms (and it's usually blatantly obvious what's been done to the recordings looking at the cumulative spectral plots and the spectrograms), most all the presence and and realism often returns to the recordings...as much as can be recovered from the damage done during recording/mixing/mastering processes without trying to correct for compression techniques that have been applied to the recordings.  When you return back to the as-distributed music track off disc, you can hear what has been done to the recordings, and I have to say that it's a letdown and it feels like a huge betrayal from those entrusted to bring the music to us with its fidelity intact.  Instead, it sounds like a table radio, turning our investments of time and money into our hi-fi setups into a worthless pile of rubbish--not worth any more than a table radio.

 

The only real thing that I know of is real musicians playing onstage in a large performance venue, being on stage with them playing--and the subjective sense of realism and presence that accompanies that.  I've been in bad auditoriums and halls in terms of their acoustics from the audience seats, but the stage position has (almost) never been an issue*.  That "fact" (for my ears) has never changed much over the years, except perhaps changes to hearing due to presbycusis, which shaves off the high end a great deal).  I try to use that as my reference, as I've had a lot of hours listening in that position. 

 

When I feel that subjective effect of "realism" appear from the music on the current setup, I know that I've got a well recorded music track that has largely been unaltered from what was recorded on the microphones.  Then I can trust the recording and my ears.  Beforehand, I wasn't truly able to hear the difference between an unaltered good recording and one that was simply mastered on loudspeakers and in a room acoustics setup that approximately match the ones currently being listened to/inside of.  This is the "circle of confusion" that I referred to above.

 

Chris

 

* EDIT: When the music ensemble you're playing with is playing out into an empty audience, the perceived acoustics when the auditorium is filled with people can be so different as to be disorienting (at least seated near the front of the stage while playing).  This can substantially change the perception of sound.  Playing to an empty hall, however, is much more consistent in the listening effects on-stage.

[seti]

21 hours ago, mark1101 said:

For me...............I was astounded at how wonderful the Jubs sounded in Roy's listening room.  I have heard Jubs in that room 3 or 4 times and this was clearly the best.  691 drivers on the 402s.  Seamless sound..........Sparkling things dancing off the slanted ceiling.  Vocals jumping out front.........Clean clear bottom end with extension.

 

While the Heritage demo was striking and very impressive and interesting to me (no need to describe as Mike already did).............the Jubs stole the show for me while at the same time flying under the radar it seemed.

 

Regardless, Roy's fingerprints are on all of it.  He is so calm about all of it, but this is clear.  He's got a great FAMILY of toys for every kind of listener.

 

I agree. I have heard the Jubilee's so many times. Yet this is the absolure best I have ever heard them. Did Roy do some more tweaking? Roy's Jubilee setup is the best loudspeaker system I have ever heard. It is in my opinion a giant slayer. PWK gotta be smiling.

 

 

 

[babadono]

2 hours ago, seti said:

 

I agree. I have heard the Jubilee's so many times. Yet this is the absolure best I have ever heard them. Did Roy do some more tweaking? Roy's Jubilee setup is the best loudspeaker system I have ever heard. It is in my opinion a giant slayer. PWK gotta be smiling.

 

 

 

[Travis In Austin]

On 10/22/2019 at 12:48 PM, mark1101 said:

Travis, Christy, Elden, Ian, Richard......and Company (I apologize to those I am missing)............the museum staff is a hard working dedicated group.  They put on an excellent event.  I am so glad I attended.  Highly recommended.

 

I'm glad you enjoyed it!  

 

I was also glad we got people a peak at the PWK 450 seat auditorium, and the possible future home for the Museum

 

We raised a lot of money for the Museum, and had a lot of fun along the way.

 

Ian got us a great projector for the Education Center; Christy and Elden just always get what ever it is needing done, done.  Richard is the new king of the mobile bar.  Jim for keeping that history alive, and Roy for agreeing to do a class to help increase membership and raise funds. 

 

@Chief bonehead was pretty much out of town the entire month of September, was at a conference up until the day before the event, and he is back right now in Colorado for another show. Yet he blocked out that weekend to put on a fall event.

 

Roy is such an excellent teacher, y'all learned more about networks, poles, filters, traps in a day then some will know if a lifetime. The variables at play.

 

I really want to thank the attendees, every one pitched in when and where it was needed.

 

Hey @mark1101 Mark 13, remember that time you and I went into the chamber, sealed it off, and they did a 1/8 space test with (was it MWM with a 402) while we were in there?  I plugged my ears as hard as I could but the sound just ripped right back to our spines. It's like being with hit with a Taser, you need to try it once just to experience it.

 

Travis

[Edgar]

I went right back to work the day after I returned home from the event, so I haven't had much time to think about it. I guess that means it's been percolating in the back of my mind since then, because an overall impression finally gelled this morning. 

 

I've been to more than one presentation by a loudspeaker manufacturer. I've heard my share of, "We use this exotic material because it violates the laws of physics," and, "We use this proprietary configuration because it allows the sound waves to travel faster than light." I think that we all know how PWK would have reacted to those claims. I'm an engineer, so I react the same way.

 

@Chief bonehead's presentation was different. Not once did he mention an exotic material or an exotic configuration. When he did mention an unusual situation, he framed it in terms of math and physics: 

 

"If you assume plane waves, then an exponential horn maximizes power transfer. If you assume spherical waves, then a tractrix horn maximizes power transfer. The math predicts it, and our measurements confirm it." 

 

"I recognized that we had two separate sources, splayed at a large angle, so they interfered." 

 

Plain and simple. No smoke, no mirrors. For me, as an engineer, this is very comforting.

[rockhound]

6 hours ago, dwilawyer said:

 

 

@Chief bonehead was pretty much out of town the entire month of September, was at a conference up until the day before the event, and he is back right now in Colorado for another show. Yet he blocked out that weekend to put on a fall event.

 

Roy is such an excellent teacher, y'all learned more about networks, poles, filters, traps in a day then some will know if a lifetime. The variables at play.

 

 

Who else has heard of a top engineer with a major brand doing this? The chief is the man not only in the products he designs but also as a person, just awesome that he took time away from catching some large mouth to teach some fellow enthusiast the ends and outs. I hope I can attend the next one! 

[Pete H]

Was there any discussion about offering components for the numerous Cornwall 1's, 2's and 3's that are out there so they could be updated for those that were considering a "Cornscala" project?  Why not tap into that market for those that would prefer to keep their older Cornwall's "Kilpsch" but want to upgrade?  IMHO, it's all plus business and wouldn't affect new sales.

 

Personally, I own Cornwall 2's and have split Cornscala's that I built.  I've thought about cutting out the C2's and going with a larger mid horn and better driver, but would absolutely look at doing that with the new Klipsch components first.  I'm really excited to hear a pair of the 4's if they ever get to a heritage dealer near me. 

[mark1101]

10 hours ago, dwilawyer said:

 

 

Hey @mark1101 Mark 13, remember that time you and I went into the chamber, sealed it off, and they did a 1/8 space test with (was it MWM with a 402) while we were in there?  I plugged my ears as hard as I could but the sound just ripped right back to our spines. It's like being with hit with a Taser, you need to try it once just to experience it.

 

Travis

 

Yes............I remember that.  A very weird experience.  Roy did not seem to care and kept curving away even with people in there.  Funny you remember that. 

[Edgar]

8 minutes ago, mark1101 said:

Roy did not seem to care and kept curving away even with people in there. 

 

Bodies are very good sound absorbers. Inside an anechoic chamber, that's basically the objective.

[mark1101]

I remember we were not quiet.  We were talking, hooting, and hollering...........did not seem to upset the measurements.

[Chris A]

20 hours ago, mark1101 said:

I remember we were not quiet.  We were talking, hooting, and hollering...........did not seem to upset the measurements.

You would have had to hoot and hollar at the same frequencies/times as the input sweep to affect the SPL response/dialing-in process.  It's the same principle as "ground shakers" used in geophysical exploration (i.e., Vibroseis trucks) and Doppler radar.   That's precisely why they use time-swept-frequency input signals: to lessen required instantaneous power output and to reject all manner of noise that's always there.

 

Otherwise, he could have just put an impulse into the loudspeakers to permanently affect your hearing, and to also get all the measurements he needed...

 

Chris

[mark1101]

One thing I need to mention and it is a big one.............a Big thanks to Cory Harrison for powering the Education Center for the duration.......with Cornwall IIIs (very nice), Forte IIIs, tubes, solid state, vinyl, Cds, streaming hardware, a DAC.......and  "The 3". 

 

Cory was pretty quiet and kept busy..............but generously brought all that equipment to share and for everyone to enjoy.  I really enjoyed the evenings with all this great stuff to see and hear.

 

The 3 was just sitting on a table. and that little 3 filled a freakin' building.  I was amazed.  Whoever came up with that deserves a bonus.

 

Travis played DJ and flipped records at a high rate.........like it was the 70s.  Hadn't seen anything like that in years actually.  Fun to watch.

[Travis In Austin]

13 hours ago, rockhound said:

Who else has heard of a top engineer with a major brand doing this? The chief is the man not only in the products he designs but also as a person, just awesome that he took time away from catching some large mouth to teach some fellow enthusiast the ends and outs. I hope I can attend the next one! 

The answer is "probably nobody" has heard of a speaker engineer doing it

 

Well let me make one minor clarification on this that I think adds to the nice sentiments about Roy in your post. 

 

This was an Education Class presented by the Museum. Roy is a Trustee of the Museum. Part of the Mission and Vision of the Museum is education.  Roy is also Chair of the Education Committee because he likes to teach, and he is good at it. For three years he has been saying he needed a classroom, so we got him one at the airport. When the Education Center was finished I asked Roy now that we could start doing classes could we do the first one on a way that helped raise funds for the Museum and provided an incentive to be a sustaining level member. He said "sure, but who would pay to hear me talk, I wouldn't pay to hear me talk."  I told him it wouldn't be a problem to get people to come and he said he would do anything to help Museum, as long as we didn't use his photo in any advertising (I know he hates it, and I have been prone to sneak one in, check out the Museum Edition Khorn brochure, so he trys to take preemptive strikes).

 

He made clear he didn't want it to be a speaker demo, or centered around a particular product. He was clear that he wanted people who wanted to learn and he said he was going to do it around "why did Paul do what he did."

 

Rockhound you are exactly right, he drove back from New Orleans from a conference that just eneded the day before to get back and make sure lab was set up, he gave up a weekend of fishing and missed most of the Astros game, to pass on what Paul taught him and for some great fellowship. He is a great person there is now two ways about that.

 

I'm pretty sure Roy will be going to his "bag of tricks" as he calls it and will step right up to help the Museum again next year with Deep Dive II, along with the many other things he does fornthe Museum.

 

 

 

 

[Travis In Austin]

2 hours ago, mark1101 said:

Travis played DJ and flipped records at a high rate.........like it was the 70s.  Hadn't seen anything like that in years actually.  Fun to watch.

Well it was easy compared to the 70s when I did it after  consuming.  . . . Well that's a story for a different time.

 

You should see how fast I can thread a reel to reel tape deck.

[Edgar]

8 hours ago, dwilawyer said:

You should see how fast I can thread a reel to reel tape deck.

 

We used to do something that we called a "dead-air flip", when playing whole albums. Pot-down the turntable, move the tonearm to the rest, flip the record over, hit it with the Discwasher brush, cue-up the tonearm, pot-up the turntable, start playing side 2, all in less time than it takes to read this sentence.

 

Those were the days.