Shiva Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 14 hours ago, JFHSQT said: It's about an 8 hour round trip. I'm going to be in the DC area for CAF next weekend and I'm asking around my audiophile group up there if anyone has a pair I could listen to. That is a very nice looking room, Well done👍 I like the acoustic panels on the wall and the big listening couch to chill in. A fairly aggressive toe in. Are you feeling that the mids and highs are a little too aggressive sounding and envision taking it down a few db? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFHSQT Posted October 22, 2019 Author Share Posted October 22, 2019 10 hours ago, mikebse2a3 said: It was La Scala AL5 not La Scala ll we listened to. Everyone must also remember the La Scala AL5 would benefit more from boundary loading versus the Cornwall lV so that should be taken into consideration when forming opinions during this demonstration IMHO since optimum performance would usually mean closer placement to walls or corner for the La Scala. I was there as well and while I agree that the Cornwall lV is significantly improved over its predecessor and should definitely be an option for you to consider but with that said I still preferred the horn loaded LF over the direct radiator sound even though it doesn’t extend as low on its own. Disclaimer: I actually own the LaScala AL5 and have spent several months with them so this event wasn’t my first exposure to them. Try to be patient and see if you can listen to them for yourself to see what you prefer and just as importantly what will sound best in your room and system since ultimately they all have to work together to achieve the sound you desire. miketn Very true about boundary. I recently made a change with my positioning by raising the front of the La Scalas very slightly with a couple of Orea pucks under each front corner. This resulted in a noticeable difference in sound which I attribute to better directional absorbtion by the first and second reflection acoustic panels, as well as raising the tweeters slightly above ear level. This really cleaned up the sound quite a bit and resulted in better detail and a "firmer" sound. I'll definitely give the CW IV a fair shot/listen... I realize a lot of this is subjective to listener preferences. I have had several people swear up and down that in their experience the Cornwall IIIs sound better than the La Scala IIs. This obviously was not my experience. But it stands to reason others may prefer the sound of the CW IV to the AL5 LS as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFHSQT Posted October 22, 2019 Author Share Posted October 22, 2019 22 minutes ago, Shiva said: That is a very nice looking room, Well done👍 I like the acoustic panels on the wall and the big listening couch to chill in. A fairly aggressive toe in. Are you feeling that the mids and highs are a little too aggressive sounding and envision taking it down a few db? Thanks! I actually move that Eames replica into the center of the room (in front of the couch) every night for critical listening. The couch is primarily home theater use. I did find that the best placement in this room was directly in the corners... I struggled a bit with soundstage and imaging when trying to get a toe-in with them flat against that back wall. They are about 45º toe-in right now, pretty much right over the opposite shoulders when I am sitting in the main listening position. Raising the fronts slightly with Orea pucks helped by better utilizing the first and second reflection panels and really tightened up the sound. I don't find the mids/highs very aggressive at all with this placement. What I do find, regardless of positioning, is that on certain mid-high timbres of vocalists and some instruments, there is a slightly aggressive overtone/ring frequency that seems a bit forward. It's not what I would call treble-y or sharp... just a bit of an unnatural resonance in an otherwise perfectly balanced midrange. Those overtones could be what @Dave A was talking about when he mentioned certain things about the mids that the Cornwall IVs handle better than the La Scalas. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFHSQT Posted October 22, 2019 Author Share Posted October 22, 2019 13 hours ago, Dave A said: There have to be some up there and I will be interested in your comments. I'll definitely post an update. I am really interested in hearing them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubo Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 On 10/21/2019 at 7:40 AM, JFHSQT said: is even possible to just add the 402 to the La Scala IIs and use it in the way I am thinking without a whole lot of tinkering around with crossover settings etc. Lots of people have put different horns on top the LaScala Your current crossover is a 3 way crossover With just two drivers, which is a good idea, you need a two-way crossover Your configuration would be Pre amp feeding 1 stereo crossover Crossovers feeding two, two channel amplifiers. 2 luxmans ?. DBX and others have some great options, which are used in pro applications and studios Xover will have to support 0-500 hz on the low and 400 to 17k on the high How fast one signal drops off and the other takes over is important, if you can adjust the roll off and experiment .....better. Analog vs digital.....once analog I hate to re-encode to digital ...quantization errors may be unavoidable, so 96Khz is supposed to be invisible to ear........ For your cross over choices, there are others on the forum that can make better suggestions than I can on specific models. Balanced vs RCA, digital vs analog, roll off options, cross over frequencies etc...... If your pre amp is balanced, I would go all balanced. You can also think about adding a pro studio Equalizer with a microphone adjustment which brings up the same issues as below, lots of choices...... dbx offers parametric Examples of what is out there Crossover $250 Eq $550 totl digital https://dbxpro.com/en/product_families/crossovers https://dbxpro.com/en/products/223xs The dbx 223xs is a dual channel crossover with all the features you would expect from a professional product. It features Linkwitz-Riley 24dB per octave filters, independent output gain controls for level matching, output phase inversion, 40 Hz low cut filter, and optional mono summing of the low frequency (subwoofer) output. Everything in the design exudes great precision from the solid "click" controls to the high quality XLR inputs and outputs. Recommended for: Portable. Features XLR balanced ins and outs Mode switch for stereo 2-way or mono 3-way operation Low frequency summed (subwoofer) output x10 range switch on both channels 40Hz high pass (low cut) filter both channels Phase reverse switch on all outputs Individual level controls on all outputs 24dB per octave Linkwitz-Riley filters (the professional standard) Stereo/Mono status LEDs indicate the selected mode dbx® 2 year parts and labor as standard CSA NRTL/C approved CE compliant The 234xs uses precision filters to separate the audio signal and direct the correct frequencies to your loudspeaker drivers. By directing only the specific frequency bands to each speaker driver the 234xs leaves your amplifiers free to use their full power on the usable signal eliminating distortion and giving your PA system a cleaner and better sound. The dbx 234xs is a dual channel crossover with all the features you would expect from a professional product. It features Linkwitz-Riley 24dB per octave filters, independent output gain controls for level matching, output phase inversion, 40 Hz low cut filter, and optional mono summing of the low frequency (subwoofer) output. Everything in the design exudes great precision from the solid "click" controls to the high quality XLR inputs and outputs. Recommended for: Portable. Features XLR balanced ins and outs Mode switches for mono 4-way or stereo 2-way/3-way operation Low frequency summed (subwoofer) output x10 range switch on both channels 40Hz high pass (low cut) filter both channels Phase reverse switch on all outputs Individual level controls on all outputs 24dB per octave Linkwitz-Riley filters (the professional standard) Stereo/Mono status LEDs indicate the selected mode dbx® 2 year parts and labor as standard CSA NRTL/C approved CE compliant iEQ-15 also offers the built-in necessities which include AFS™ feedback Suppression, Type V™ noise reduction and PeakStopPlus® limiting. Besides including two 15-band channels of 2/3-octave equalization, the iEQ-15 also offers +12 dB input gain range; switchable +6 or +15 dB boost/cut range, 40mm faders, XLR, 1/4'' and Euroblock inputs and outputs, nonconductive nylon sliders; and an intuitive user interface with comprehensive output and gain reduction metering. As always, the inevitable result of our meticulous attention to detail and top-quality componentry is exceptional sound, performance, and reliability. The iEQ series represents a major step forward in the performance of EQs. The iEQ series is now able to offer state-of-the-art digital EQ performance and specs with an analog look and feel. From its amazing 10Hz to 22kHz frequency response, to its 113dB dynamic range and Advanced Feedback Suppression (AFS™), dbx proprietary Type V™ noise reduction and PeakStopPlus® limiting, the iEQ-15 offers out of this world specifications with a downto- earth price point. Sure to find a home in the studio, on tour and with installed sound venues, the iEQ-15 is destined to take its rightful place in the lineage of great dbx® signal processors that are the professional’s choice in signal processing. With such pristine design and quality, the iEQ-15 offers the maximum sonic flexibility in a straight forward interface and rock-solid construction. Recommended for: Portable, Tour. Features Advanced Feedback Suppression (AFS™) Type V™ Noise Reduction PeakStopPlus® Limiting 2/3-octave Constant Q frequency bands Switchable boost/cut ranges of +6 or +15dB 18 dB per octave 40Hz low-cut filter +12dB input gain range XLR, TRS and Euroblock Inputs and Outputs Internal Toroidal Transformer Frequency Response of 10Hz to 22kHz Dynamic range of greater than 113dB User Power Up Features Relay Bypass for Power Failure System Protection Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubo Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 Here is a thread on the 402 la Scala combination Quote What do I have to do to hook-up the K-402 horns to my commercial La Scala's? I have the commercial La Scala's so the woofer bin is separate from the tweeter/mid top. I'm a new-be so I have no idea. https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/170152-hooking-up-k-402-horns-to-commercial-la-scalas-bracing-the-bins/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubo Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 Another thread on Jubes Hello Everyone, Quote I've owned and love Klipsch speakers. I've kept seeing over the years references to Klipsch Jubilee speakers but I'd get in over my head, get confused and move on. Well, I've got the bug again and am still VERY intrigued in hearing/owning another legendary speaker of very high efficiency. https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/160716-klipsch-jubilee-newbie-seeking-help-please/&page=5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubo Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 On 10/21/2019 at 7:40 AM, JFHSQT said: Quotes are inverted, my comments are in quotes...... What I would like to improve on the La Scala IIs is a bit smoother midrange with more cohesiveness from the top to bottom end (I am currently supporting the bottom end with dual SVS SB2000 subs). What I absolutely don't want to sacrifice is the scale, dynamics, and speed of the La Scala IIs. There are very few, if any, speakers I can think of that do what the La Scala IIs do so well in those departments. SO the last thing I want to do is spend thousands of dollars then have buyer's remorse because I've sacrificed one of those other areas. Quote LaScalas are hard to beat at any price, all designs have trade offs. Before you touch the LaScalas I would get your hands on an equalizer and experiment, bumping up 400hz on mine makes a noticeable difference. E bay or something like the dbx listed above. I never run a system without an Eq There is some pc software used to measure freqs and you would need a mic, others can suggest cost effective good solutions, Parts Express may have what you need. Next option, I guess the most obvious, would be the new AK6 Klipschorns. Quote K horns have the same midrange horn and driver as LaScala, so no change there. The other most recent option has been looking into Jubilees. Quote Again they all have engineering trade offs, two drivers is better than 3 etc. the horn on the Jubes will be above your ear which I don't like, ear level is best for me. This is the reason I purchased the LaScalas over the K-horns with slightly better base, and over the very wide belles. I will say I am not a huge fan of the bass bin aesthetic of the Jubes. Quote They can be dressed up like in the photos, the current production is I believe for theaters. Klipsch may be willing to make you a pair with veneer and grill cloths etc. But I would demo them at someone's home before throwing down the green, it won't be cheap.....Again, how do they sound sitting, not standing. They do kind of look a little industrial and 1990s to me. Again, size is not a factor, but I don't want an eyesore as the main focal point in the room. However it seems like all of the great things I am reading about the Jubes could potentially be seen by holding on to my La Scala II bass bins and just replacing the tophat with the 402 horn. Quote Probably sounds great, but the only photos I found are not a turn on for me. In this configuration I could see setting the 402 on top of the La Scala II bass bin, and continuing to use my SB2000 subs (sent out from my preamp). This option could retain all of the great things about the La Scala IIs that I love and improve the midrange and scale of the speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubo Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 The 2 way crossover quest for the holy grail has been going on at least since the 1950s This was Altec's totl home model the 820c with 2 15in woofers and a two way crossover 175lbs each Lansing had a bullet proof patent on his horn driver and diaphram 400-17K hz, if memory serves me correctly, so everyone else had to stay with 3 way crossover until the patent ran out..... 811 horn is approximately at ear level if memory serves me correctly Klipsch rolled out the K horn either before or after Lansing responded with this. The magnets are aligned on the 3 drivers, so phase isn't an issue Mahogany veneer with grills. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfbane Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 On 10/21/2019 at 9:44 AM, Dave A said: No I have no idea why the double post!!!! Stereo effect? Wb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 Okay, here's my experience and advice, based on listening to La Scalas since 2006, with upgrades starting in late 2006 and going until earlier this year. First, how I got to where I am. In August of 2006, I bought a pair of La Scalas at a vintage hi-fi shop. Soon, I'd gone from original "as found" 1974 La Scalas. First, I added Dynamat Xtreme to the outside surfaces of the K400 horns, and replaced the old, probably original, capacitors with new Sonicaps. A few days later, the original K-77 tweeters were replaced with Crites CT125 tweeters. The next year, the AVR power amp was bypassed in favour of a Yamaha MX-D1, which powered the main Left and Right speakers, while the AVR, a Yamaha RX-V750 drove the surround speakers. That provided much better sound, with more clarity and authority. A year later, a second MX-D1 was purchased, along with an Electro-Voice Dx-38 digital processor and a pair of K510 horns with K-69A drivers. That combo provided a leap to the next league of performance, and earned them the title of 510 JubScalas. Five years later, a pair of La Scala IIs became available, so they came home from the mainland with me, so the La Scalas had their HF sections reconnected, and then went behind and beside the sofa to become the new Left and Right Surround speakers. The LSIIs became 510 JubScala IIs, and they sounded great, with more and better bass. I hadn't noticed any resonance issues with the original La Scalas, but the 148 Hz peak that bothers some listeners disappeared just like it did on the old speakers, courtesy of the Dx38. Four years later, the K510 horns were replaced with K402 horns, and the performance took another leap upward. Two years after that, in early 2019, the K-69-A drivers were replaced with K-691 drivers, producing more sonic improvements, and that's the current state of the system, although I'm experimenting with toe-in variations at the moment. This is what can happen to anyone who buys a pair of Heritage Series speakers, and then joins this forum. I joined this motley crew of enablers only a couple of months after I bought the first La Scalas, and the trip down this rabbit hole began soon after that. Now, about you. Why are you considering an upgrade? Is there something lacking in the sound of your La Scala IIs, or are you just thinking of some kind of upgrade because you're bored, or figure it's just something you ought to do? The La Scala IIS are fairly new, so not much hotrodding of them has been done yet. Many are still under warranty. However, you can often make improvements in your listening room that will very noticeably improve the sound of your system. If your room does not have ideal acoustics, you're not hearing your system as it could and should sound. Do you have a subwoofer (or two)? La Scalas, like most speakers (if their owners would admit it), really benefit from the help of a good sub for the bottom octaves. A horn-loaded sub is ideal, but a good direct-firing one can also do a good job, assuming that you've taken the time to get its location and settings just right. If you really want to do an upgrade to your LSIIs that will possibly be the last upgrade, because it will really boost their performance to the next league, consider doing the 402 JubScala conversion. If you're feeling a bit timid, don't know how to set a digital processor/crossover/equalizer properly, and don't know how to tune it, don't worry. The settings are available from Klipsch, and since it's a factory-tested upgrade, there's a lot of support for it. The E-V Dx38, or DC-One, or Yamaha SP2060, or the Xilica, is pretty much a set-and-forget device. It doesn't take that long to punch in the settings, or you can get them in download form, which some people find easier. You also need to buy a pair of K402 horns. They come complete with drivers and stands, and cost around $2000. As well, you'll need a high quality power amp to match the one you already have, or just buy a pair of them if you don't already have one. Once you've gone to the trouble and expense to round up all this stuff, there's no point in cheaping out on the power amps, because they are an important part of the voice of the system. What does all that give you? Well, some who have heard all the various combinations of Jubilees and JubScalas say that the JubScalas provide 90% of the sound of the Jubilees, which is a big jump up from stock La Scalas, first gen or LSII. The thing is, you've spent maybe 50% of the cost of a pair of Jubilees by this point, plus the price of your La Scalas, so why not just save for a bit longer and buy a pair of the big boys in the first place? The bass and HF sections look like they actually belong together, unlike the JubScala, plus they're new speakers, with the factory warranty. The electronics work with any of the variations. You just punch in the settings that your particular combo needs, and the Dx38 has room in its memory for 30 pages of User Configurations. Mine is only up to 3 so far. As for looks, the Jubilee is a Pro Theater unit, so it's usually behind a cloth screen. it's also a concert speaker, so it's meant to be unobtrusive on stage. If you have an all-black room, maybe visitors won't even notice them. The fact is, Jubilees look so big and unusual to most people that they often don't even register as speakers. I've got a 65" TV, flanked by what appears to be some strange big cabinets, each with a 40" TV on top of it. That's what a recent visitor told me. Since she just passed a glance at that side of the room, she thought I had a 3-screen video array, like I was some kind of international trader or something. So. If you really want to upgrade your La Scala IIs, and do it once and for all, here's what I recommend: check your finances and see if you can cough up for a pair of Jubilees, a 2-amp combo of some sort, and a digital processor (used E-V Dx38s can be found online for as low as $500. Mine came from a Guitar Center in California, and they had a few of them), and you're all set. If your budget is tight, start setting money aside today, and see how much money you can put into your speaker upgrade account every month until you've got enough. Keep you eyes open for bargains, and you may get lucky. All audio fans should have a system upgrade account that they keep adding to, so when a bargain pops up, they can think fast and act fast, and get a great deal. Cash is king! What about your La Scala IIs? Well, they make great surround speakers, because their timbre is not that far from the Jubilees, which have been described as sounding like Super-Scalas. Most other Klipsch speakers will sound unlike Jubilees, making them less ideal when teamed up with Jubilees. Keep in mind that for ideal surround sound, you want a set of totally matching speakers, like all Scalas or all Jubilees. This may sound unbelievable and totally unaffordable, but one forum member has a 7-Scala home theatre, and another member (or maybe two) has a 5-Jubilee setup. It can be done. Used Heritage speakers can be great bargains. One more thing: try to find an opportunity to listen to a pair of Jubilees, even if it's a long drive from where you live. Quite a few Jubilee owners on the Forum would like to get more people to hear Jubilees, because they sound great, and they're a real bargain, since their performance is higher than any other speakers in their price range. If you're gong to spend that much money, you want to be sure you'll like what you're buying. And if it turns out that they're not for you, the money you've saved up will come in handy for some other audio gear, or some recordings or downloads. The software is even more important than the hardware, because that's the music. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubo Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 Coytee Klipsch Forum Lifer Heritage Members 2301 14354 posts Location: Knoxville, TN Posted April 12, 2017 Quote if you're building, you can incorporate the K510 into the top and make it a 2-way (and go active) At the same time, you will get a lot better coherence from the 2-way setup and a lot 'larger' (not necessarily louder although it can do that too) sound. (not my speaker but they did a nice job) https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/170006-la-scala-ii-plans-and-drivercrossover-list/ This has a much better aesthetic than the Jube Horn, LaScala bass bin combo IMHO. It also puts the horn at ear level Garage Sale post from 2014 Quote I have for sale two Klipsch K-510 Horns with K-69 drivers.(Mine are actually P Audio BMD750 drivers however it is exactly the same) They have only been used for about 6 weeks. These items are a perfect upgrade to take a LaScala to 2-way making it a Jubscala or to scratch build a really nice 2 way "cornscala' with the addition of 2 Crites CW1526c woofers. I have a set of Jubscala myself but have got the upgrade bug and i have upgraded my drivers and gone active with the crossover so if anybody is considering it they are ready to go. $600 for the lot. (shipped) https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/150351-k510/ https://usspeaker.com/paudio bmd750-1.htm Recommended cross over at 1khz, looks like 400hz is a stretch Very cool, now I want one to play with...... EV Dx 38 User Manual https://www.electrovoice.com/binary/Dx38_Manual_Rev.5.pdf 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFHSQT Posted October 23, 2019 Author Share Posted October 23, 2019 Thanks @Islander and @Bubo - this is a wealth of information and answers a lot of questions I have about the Jubilees in particular. I gotta be honest, however it reflects on me here in this forum... The Jubilee and/or JubScala project does seem all a little overwhelming for me, and as I've listened to the La Scala IIs over the past few nights since starting this thread, I have been much more critically listening and really trying to get to the heart of why I want to upgrade. Honestly, they sound amazing, and upon hours of listening there really seems to be only one conclusion - "these sound amazing, but I feel like there's even better I can get to wring out that last 5-8% of what is possible." And so the question would then be how much trouble and expense is it worth to get that 5-8%. With the Jubes/JubScala, it seems like there's a lot of DIY stuff and considerable additional expense when you start talking about getting another $6,000 Luxman tube amplifier and digital crossovers, etc. I also have concerns about re-digitizing an analog system that has already been processed by my Innuos/Chord electronics, which I really, really like... running them through a digital crossover effectively makes them irrelevant. What I'd be looking for is a solution that goes from the speaker taps of my Luxman directly to the posts of 2 other speakers, passing the unaltered analog system from my tube amp into the speakers. So within those parameters, is there a speaker upgrade that can wring that last little slice of fidelity out of my system? It sounds like Khorns may get me 3%, maybe Cornwall IVs could get a little further... but again there's $6-12,000 investment. All of this tells me 2 things... 1) I need to hear Jubilees at some point because they must be absolutely awesome and (2) I probably need to save myself a nice chunk of change and continue to enjoy the La Scala IIs in my system. 5 hours ago, Islander said: Do you have a subwoofer (or two)? La Scalas, like most speakers (if their owners would admit it), really benefit from the help of a good sub for the bottom octaves. A horn-loaded sub is ideal, but a good direct-firing one can also do a good job, assuming that you've taken the time to get its location and settings just right. I do have 2 SVS SB2000s running with the LS IIs, crossover is set around 70Hz and the blend is extremely seamless, in that you can't tell the bass is not coming from the LS bass bins. Occasionally on sub-bass (below ~20Hz) it is a little evident that the subs are in the mix, but only on certain electronic music, etc. Optimal placement was done using extensive work with Anthem ARC room correction & my Anthem AVM 60 (using the spot measurement tool) but there is no DSP/room correction done on the subs at this point. I have a totally independent & separated HT system with Monitor Audio Gold speakers and SVS SB16 Ultra/JL Audio e112 subs that does use Anthem Room Correction and it is awesome. But no way for 2 channel music. 14 hours ago, Bubo said: Before you touch the LaScalas I would get your hands on an equalizer and experiment, bumping up 400hz on mine makes a noticeable difference. E bay or something like the dbx listed above. Thanks - I don't mess with EQ as mentioned before, I am really happy with the Chord digital stack & Luxman tube amp and don't want to further alter the signal - However, I am a Roon user and it does have parametric EQ options so I will experiment with that based on your results! Additionally I have some pretty extensive room treatment with acoustic panels, scatter plates, bass traps, etc. It makes a huge difference! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 None of the equipment listed offer time alignment, that alone will make a huge difference. To get a taste remove the tweets and align on top of the cabinet with the K-55. EQ the bass bin, it needs it. Not to sound like a broken record but there is a big difference in sound and performance between the Horn loaded subs and DR types like those SVS you own. Horn load that system all the way down, low frequencies is where you need the horn loading advantage the most. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubo Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 I think this runs on a lap top you would need a mic, which parts express also sells. They offer a mic you can run into a smart phone, which streams to the lap top. This should allow you to sweep the frequencies on your system. Typically you set up the mic where your ears usually sit, then run a sweep. Should be plenty of videos on you tube I run something different.... the other guys on here can probably give you some suggestions on sweeping the systems with this or another product. Quote TrueRTA's Signal Generator produces an ultra low-distortion sine wave variable from 5 Hz to 24kHz. The output level can be specified anywhere from full scale to a single bit of amplitude. In addition to the sine wave the generator can be switched to pink noise. https://www.parts-express.com/true-audio-truerta-audio-spectrum-analyzer-software--500-944 https://www.trueaudio.com/rta_abt1.htm Quick Sweep TrueRTA's Quick Sweep employs a short digitally generated sweep (chirp) to measure the frequency response of electronic and acoustical systems. Below is the measured response of an E-MU 0404 USB audio interface at 96 kHz sampling frequency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 On 10/23/2019 at 10:45 AM, JFHSQT said: Thanks @Islander and @Bubo - this is a wealth of information and answers a lot of questions I have about the Jubilees in particular. I gotta be honest, however it reflects on me here in this forum... The Jubilee and/or JubScala project does seem all a little overwhelming for me, and as I've listened to the La Scala IIs over the past few nights since starting this thread, I have been much more critically listening and really trying to get to the heart of why I want to upgrade. Honestly, they sound amazing, and upon hours of listening there really seems to be only one conclusion - "these sound amazing, but I feel like there's even better I can get to wring out that last 5-8% of what is possible." All of this tells me 2 things... 1) I need to hear Jubilees at some point because they must be absolutely awesome and (2) I probably need to save myself a nice chunk of change and continue to enjoy the La Scala IIs in my system. I do have 2 SVS SB2000s running with the LS IIs, crossover is set around 70Hz and the blend is extremely seamless, in that you can't tell the bass is not coming from the LS bass bins. Occasionally on sub-bass (below ~20Hz) it is a little evident that the subs are in the mix, but only on certain electronic music, etc. Optimal placement was done using extensive work with Anthem ARC room correction & my Anthem AVM 60 (using the spot measurement tool) but there is no DSP/room correction done on the subs at this point. I have a totally independent & separated HT system with Monitor Audio Gold speakers and SVS SB16 Ultra/JL Audio e112 subs that does use Anthem Room Correction and it is awesome. But no way for 2 channel music. Yes, jumping up to Jubilees is a big step, one that takes a serious financial commitment. It may be something you want to consider in the future. Could it be that you haven't heard all that your Scala IIs can do? Have you listened to some excellent recordings through them? With your speakers and your fine electronics, you should be able to easily hear the difference between good recordings and bad recordings, and the best should sound really good. I listen to Net Radio a lot of the time, but when I pop in a CD or put on an LP instead, the improvement in sound amazes and pleases me. If you want to hear good and bad on the same CD, get 1, the Beatles compilation album, released in 2000. On it, you can hear songs from the Beatles whole time together, from 1962 until 1970. The interesting thing in this context is that you can hear George Martin, their producer, learning his craft. He was not great at first. The songs are in chronological order, and the recording quality runs from from bad mono to pretty good mono, then from bad stereo to Beatles-quality stereo. It might be an ear-opening experience for you. If you like Neil Young, check out Live From Massey Hall 1971, on the DVD, not the CD. They were sold together as the Deluxe Version, which cost only $2 more than the CD alone. The DVD sounds so much better than the CD, and will let you hear nuances in his playing and singing that you may have never heard before. It's just Neil and his guitar and piano, so every note is heard clearly. It's one of the best recordings I've ever heard. BTW, the video is very lo-fi, like it was shot with an 8mm home movie camera. This may have been done to maximize bandwidth for the audio, which would be consistent with Neil's very high standard for his recordings. As for your setup, I would make only two suggestions. First, raise the crossover on your subs higher, to maybe 120 Hz or so. As you know, speaker output doesn't cut off right at its claimed lower frequency limit, it starts to roll off at some point above that. In the case of the La Scala, original and II, that point is around 100 Hz. In the same way, subs do not cut off precisely at their upper limit, they start to roll off at some point below that. Accordingly, to avoid a dip at the crossover region, it's necessary to set the sub(s) to overlap the lower frequency response region of the speakers. This might call for a reduction of volume for the subs. Maybe try 100 Hz first. Experiment! It's free, and it can be a very useful learning experience. The second suggestion is to see if you can EQ out the La Scala 148 Hz. peak. This affects both the original model and the II, since it's due to the shape of the bass horn, and has nothing to do with any resonance issues that might be audible at very high volume levels. I didn't really notice it, and now it's gone, thanks to the Dx38 digital processor, which can do things that are impossible for a passive crossover. However, if you have an easy way to dial down the speaker output by about 7 dB, centred on 148-150 Hz, it's worth checking out. Happy listening! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 On 10/22/2019 at 11:36 PM, Bubo said: Klipsch rolled out the K horn either before or after Lansing responded with this. The magnets are aligned on the 3 drivers, so phase isn't an issue Mahogany veneer with grills. The 820C came out in the mid 50s. The earlier 820s I think, were still after PWKs corner horn. The Altec horns were still a front loaded short horn, though, almost like an A7 made in a triangular shape to fit into a corner. It would have helped the bass, but Paul's Klipschorn folded horn geometry had them beat by a long shot. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFHSQT Posted October 26, 2019 Author Share Posted October 26, 2019 On 10/25/2019 at 3:28 PM, Islander said: Yes, jumping up to Jubilees is a big step, one that takes a serious financial commitment. It may be something you want to consider in the future. Could it be that you haven't heard all that your Scala IIs can do? Have you listened to some excellent recordings through them? With your speakers and your fine electronics, you should be able to easily hear the difference between good recordings and bad recordings, and the best should sound really good. I listen to Net Radio a lot of the time, and when I pop in a CD or put on an LP instead, the improvement in sound amazes and pleases me. Yes, I do have excellent sources - listening to mostly Redbook but some hi res files purchased either through Qobuz or HD Tracks... content is where it all starts and ultimately what it's all about. My favorite & most played albums are things like Chick Corea Trio's Trilogy recordings, Tears for Fears' Seeds of Love, Pink Floyd's DSOTM, lots of Pat Metheny, Rick Rubin's work with Tom Petty & Johnny Cash, Steven Wilson, etc... it goes on and on, but honestly even with poorly produced Redbook files the Chord stack still makes them sound incredibly refined and transparent (80s pop. etc). On 10/25/2019 at 3:28 PM, Islander said: First, raise the crossover on your subs higher, to maybe 120 Hz or so. As you know, speaker output doesn't cut off right at its claimed lower frequency limit, it starts to roll off at some point above that. In the case of the La Scala, original and II, that point is around 100 Hz. in the same way, subs do not cut off precisely at their upper limit, they start to roll off at some point below that. Accordingly, to avoid a dip at the crossover region, it's necessary to set the sub(s) to overlap the lower frequency response region of the speakers. This might call for a reduction of volume for the subs. Maybe try 100 Hz first. Experiment! It's free, and it can be a very useful learning experience. Thanks - I run dual SVS SB2000 subs, which is an upgrade over the single JL Audio e112 I was running. The SB2000s have a 12dB low pass rolloff slope and I've had them set at 70Hz since doing a lot of experimenting by ear. One thing I noticed with higher settings was male bass vocals noticeably bleeding over into the subwoofer at much higher than 70Hz. I used Club for Five's cover of Brothers In Arms to set optimally to avoid the lead bass vocal from bleeding over and got down to about 70Hz until it wasn't an issue. This afternoon I am experimenting a bit more per your suggestion - set at 100Hz, there is a good bump/improvement in that upper bass and I'm not hearing any separation - but I haven't listened to Club for Five yet (ha!) On 10/25/2019 at 3:28 PM, Islander said: The second suggestion is to see if you can EQ out the La Scala 148 Hz. peak. This affects both the original model and the II, since it's due to the shape of the bass horn, and has nothing to do with any resonance issues that might be audible at very high volume levels. I didn't really notice it, and now it's gone, thanks to the Dx38 digital processor, which can do things that are impossible for a passive crossover. However, if you have an easy way to dial down the speaker output by about 7 dB, centred on 148-150 Hz, it's worth checking out. Thanks - I can experiment with this via Roon's DSP parametric EQ filters. I did experiment based on an earlier suggestion on bumping a bit up at 400Hz but I didn't hear any improvement. I'll run some tracks with a notch at 148Hz and see how it sounds. All in all this has been a really enlightening thread, one that - as I've mentioned - has given me a little more appreciation for my current system and the capabilities of the La Scala IIs. It does seem like upgrades at this point would be at considerable expense for potentially not much of an "upgrade" from what I love about these speakers right now. It's a cliche but these kind of discussions can make you "really appreciate what you have" versus the greener grass we always seem to be chasing in this hobby. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 3 hours ago, JFHSQT said: Yes, I do have excellent sources - listening to mostly Redbook but some hi res files purchased either through Qobuz or HD Tracks... content is where it all starts and ultimately what it's all about. My favorite & most played albums are things like Chick Corea Trio's Trilogy recordings, Tears for Fears' Seeds of Love, Pink Floyd's DSOTM, lots of Pat Metheny, Rick Rubin's work with Tom Petty & Johnny Cash, Steven Wilson, etc... it goes on and on, but honestly even with poorly produced Redbook files the Chord stack still makes them sound incredibly refined and transparent (80s pop. etc). You have some pretty good taste in music. If you'd like some blues with a rock feel, you might try Rory Gallagher. His audiences seem to love him. Quote Thanks - I run dual SVS SB2000 subs, which is an upgrade over the single JL Audio e112 I was running. The SB2000s have a 12dB low pass rolloff slope and I've had them set at 70Hz since doing a lot of experimenting by ear. One thing I noticed with higher settings was male bass vocals noticeably bleeding over into the subwoofer at much higher than 70Hz. I used Club for Five's cover of Brothers In Arms to set optimally to avoid the lead bass vocal from bleeding over and got down to about 70Hz until it wasn't an issue. This afternoon I am experimenting a bit more per your suggestion - set at 100Hz, there is a good bump/improvement in that upper bass and I'm not hearing any separation - but I haven't listened to Club for Five yet (ha!) Islander: Yes, male vocals often do get low enough to turn on my Paradigm sub, but I don't know the actual turn-on frequency. Sometimes, when I'm listening to talk radio, the sub will be asleep for long periods, if women are speaking, with no male voices. But then, as soon as a man starts to speak, the sub clicks On. Well, if the engineers at the subwoofer factory think the male voices are deep enough that the sub is needed to express them properly, I won't argue. Some reviewers write that the influence of a sub can extend into the mid-range, even if the cut-off frequency is much lower than that. Thanks - I can experiment with this via Roon's DSP parametric EQ filters. I did experiment based on an earlier suggestion on bumping a bit up at 400Hz but I didn't hear any improvement. I'll run some tracks with a notch at 148Hz and see how it sounds. All in all this has been a really enlightening thread, one that - as I've mentioned - has given me a little more appreciation for my current system and the capabilities of the La Scala IIs. It does seem like upgrades at this point would be at considerable expense for potentially not much of an "upgrade" from what I love about these speakers right now. It's a cliche but these kind of discussions can make you "really appreciate what you have" versus the greener grass we always seem to be chasing in this hobby. Islander: When I joined the forum, I thought I knew a lot about audio, but I've learned so much here that it amazes me, and continues to amaze me. Many opinions are expressed here, but there seems to be a near-consensus that a properly set up La Scala (I or II), with a good sub or subs, sounds even better than a Klipschorn. That combo can be the best-sounding Klipsch domestic (not Pro) speaker setup of the whole range. You may already be on the green side of the fence, 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybob Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 Yes some Roy...live at the Isle of Wight or LP like On The Tiles... Taste. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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